Going back to school in person shouldn’t be a choice between a family member and an education. But for some families, it is just that. For children living with immunocompromised family members, going back in person really isn’t a choice at all. It’s not even one of the options.
This episode isn’t about special ed, it’s about education and why we need learning options for children who can’t attend school in person, disability or not.
Today I talk with Dr. Marney White, both a professor at Yale School of Public Health and parent to an elementary school child who can’t go back in person. While her district provided an outstanding remote program during the COVID pandemic (yes, there are a few schools out there who rocked it), they are refusing any kind of instruction for her child next year even though his in-person attendance could kill his mother. Not a fair burden to put on a 5th grader. Because the State won’t mandate a remote option, schools are refusing to offer it.
Special education attorney Andy Feinstein also joins us to discuss the legal components of this discrimination issue and how he is helping Dr. White get her child the free public education to which he is entitled.
We discuss why it is NOT a choice to go back, why schools are refusing to help, and what other families in this situation should do.
You can find Dr. Marney White in the Facebook group CT Families in Need of Remote Learning:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/connecticutremote
You can find Attorney Andy Feinstein at The Feinstein Education Law Group:
https://www.attorneyfeinstein.com/
You can find me at [email protected]
Thanks for tuning in!
Transcripts for this episode will be available on SpecialEd.fm shortly after publication.
TRANSCRIPT (not proofread)
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, education, remote, marnie, pandemic, issue, instruction, connecticut, child, andy, special ed, kids, homeschooling, state department, districts, talking, state, learning, yale, antibody response
SPEAKERS
Marney White, PhD, MS, Andrew Feinstein, Esq., Dana Jonson
Dana Jonson 00:02
Hello, and welcome to special ed on special ed, where special ed experts discuss special ed topics for special ed parents. I’m your host, Dana Jonson, and I’ve experienced special ed from many angles. I’m a special ed attorney in private practice, a former special ed teacher and administrator, a current mom to four children who’ve all experienced special ed. And I myself have ADHD and dyslexia. I’ll provide straightforward information about your rights and your school’s obligations, information from other professionals on many topics, as well as tips and tricks for working with your school district. My goal is to empower you through your journey. But before we begin, here’s my disclaimer. The information in this podcast is provided for general informational and entertainment purposes only, and may not reflect the current law in your jurisdiction at the time you’re listening. Nothing in this episode, create an attorney client relationship, nor is it legal advice. Do not act or refrain from acting on the basis of any information included and accessible through this episode without seeking appropriate legal or other professional advice on particular facts and circumstances at issue from a lawyer or service provider licensed in your state country or other appropriate licensing jurisdiction. Okay, let’s get started. Hi, and welcome. Thank you for joining me. Today I have Andrew Feinstein and Marni White, who are joining me to talk about some of the issues that families are having with the lack of distance learning that we are being offered for next year, which is a new situation that has now arisen, thank you COVID. First, we all had to be home. Now we all have to be out and some people can’t be. So this has created a very large problem. And I have Andy Feinstein, who is a special education attorney in Connecticut, one of my esteemed colleagues, and Dr. Marnie White, who is not just a professor at Yale, but also a mom to a 10 year old boy who needs to be in fifth grade next year and may not have that opportunity. So I’m not going to do all the introductions, Marnie, why don’t you start by telling us about why Layne, your lovely son can’t go back to school in September.
Marney White, PhD, MS 02:05
Thank you so much. Thanks for focusing on this issue. I really appreciate it. Thank you. The short of it is that ironically, I find myself in this kind of cluster of a Venn diagram of circumstances where as a Professor of Public Health, I have been focusing a great deal on issues surrounding the pandemic. I’m very aware of the transmissibility of the various variants and so on. But the the overlapping irony is that I also am immunocompromised due to a potentially fatal autoimmune disease with which I was diagnosed was a month before the pandemic hit the United States, I had initiated treatment with a type of chemotherapy that wipes out my B cells, B cells being critical to the developing antibody response to the COVID vaccine. So although I was vaccinated, I did not develop the antibodies. Luckily, I am the subject of much ongoing research that is occurring at Yale and other specialized treatment centers. But because my my immune system has essentially been compromised by the life saving treatments, I am extremely vulnerable to COVID, where I to be exposed. So help me understand this because what I’m hearing and this is not my perspective, but I hear people say well then stay in a separate room mask, keep the distance, you know, figure it out. People live with first responders, they’re figuring it out. Why can’t you guys figure it out? Well, I would, I would actually say that we are figuring it out. We have remained in family level isolation for the entirety. We actually went in isolation before the lockdown in March 2020. Because I was interacting with the data beginning in January 2020. I knew what was coming and realized probably actually a little bit late in the game for my own good honestly, that we were being gaslit at a very high level and essentially made aggressive decisions before any kind of mandates came in and then pulled the family and pulled my child out of school, my husband had to stop working, because he interacts with young children through his profession. And we went into family level isolation at that time, I remember when you did that, and you made that choice. And I love that you said that we are figuring it out. We have not been sitting around doing nothing for the last 18 months, we’ve been figuring it out. And it’s just not that easy. I saw on one of the articles or interviews I’m not sure that you’ve done for you’re saying like, you know, you offered to move out, you offered to move out and live elsewhere so that your son could go to school. And, you know, interestingly, your son and husband weren’t on board with that, you know, I don’t you know, having mom with us where that didn’t seem like the solution that they were looking for and taking on a second rent to By the way, you know, taking in another great expense, you know, and everything that goes with that. So it’s not just like hey, go move out. Where are you going to go? Right. Yeah, and that’s that’s actually been a that was one of our original approaches was you know, I’ve seen These these easy solutions presented like, Well, how about you just homeschool? Or how about you just get a different place to live. I don’t think people understand that with this level of medical vulnerability, one cannot go house shopping, or apartment shopping or to the grocery store, when there’s a plumbing crisis in the home, we cannot have somebody who’s potentially been exposed come into it. This is literally a sitting duck situation. And I know this based on my privileged vantage point of being very familiar with the science, that it is individuals who are on this kind of therapy, who are not only most likely to die of the virus, we’re looking currently, initially, it was more than 75%. Now treatment has gotten much better. And it looks like maybe only around 20% of the people who are on this therapy would ultimately die. But that’s not really a roll of the dice that my family is willing to take now.
Dana Jonson 05:53
Sorry, I shouldn’t be flip about it. I really, shouldn’t. I? I can’t see it.
Marney White, PhD, MS 05:59
You know me well enough. Yeah. And most of all, my child is really inclined to play Russian Roulette with my life. And that’s what we’re looking at. Yeah.
Dana Jonson 06:09
And what I find also fascinating is that lane had such a great year last year, that the program that was put on was so good, because we were searching for that in Connecticut, where we reside. And you know, very few school districts got that right. And and yours did,
Marney White, PhD, MS 06:24
they really did. It was a really robust program. It was distinct from what was going on with the hybrid model children kind of, you know, being zoomed into a classroom or whatnot. It was a robust, really appropriate model where there was a, you know, a classroom teacher meeting, the kids aren’t as much the way we taught at Yale, actually, with here, let’s have some, here’s some static lecture. Here’s some static material. Here’s some synchronous components. Here’s a teacher to help you and meet with you individually. It was terrific. It was Yeah. And he floor it, he did much better actually, in this remote environment than he’d ever done. That’s great in the classroom setting.
Dana Jonson 07:04
Yeah, I think that’s important, because we’ve all been so focused on the kids that it’s not working for that we forget that there is a way to do it successfully, there just isn’t a way to set that up instantaneously, when you had no idea that the entire world had to go remote. So it’s not that this can’t be done. It’s just the last, you know, whenever it was that this happened, we didn’t do it. Right. So I guess my next question then is Andy, what do we do? right lane doesn’t have any special needs. I’m a special ed attorney. I’ve had a couple parents asked me this. And I’ve said, I don’t know, because I am dealing with it with some of my clients who have special education issues, which is allowing another angle to get in and to look at services for a child. But if your child doesn’t, isn’t entitled to those services, Andy, what do we do? What do these families do?
Andrew Feinstein, Esq. 07:51
Well, let me say first, that districts are required to provide remote instruction to students with disabilities, if it’s needed to provide a free appropriate public education, that would be in the IEP, and without regard to any of these other circumstances, that remains a requirement. And so districts are setting up programs for these kids. And of course, because it’s under the IDA, because it’s an IEP, the first letter is individual is their individualized programs. This is not one size fits all. So remote instruction does in fact, exist. The question is for the narrower group of kids who are in immunocompromised families, whether a remote program of instruction needs to be provided. Now, the issue about whether there’s a legal protection, where the disability is not the victim of the discrimination, but is a relative of the victim of the discrimination, I think it’s fairly clearly answered in the Justice Department guidance on the ADA. And so I do think that there’s probably a valid cause of action here. We certainly hope never to get to that place. We certainly hope that districts recognize their obligation and provide a program of remote instruction to folks in this in this category. Now, one of the issues always has been, well, if we’re going to establish some regulations on this issue, how do we distinguish between the valid cases and other people claiming that they want remote instruction? And I think there’s a couple of reasons State Department education has pushed all this out to local school districts. One of them is that raised that they’d rather have local school districts deal with that issue. The second reason is, of course, that the State Department of Education historically traditionally and continually refuses to do anything mandated to do anything clear for school districts. They want to provide guidance and not instruction. In this case, however, and I got to point this out, the guidance they provided has been incredibly confusing and ambiguous, and it’s so confusing and ambiguous that I think it’s being done by intent. I think they are trying to confuse this It was a phone call like Monday between the the Acting Commissioner Charlene Russell Tucker, and the superintendent’s. I’ve talked to a number of superintendents since then all of whom have a different answer as to what was said on this issue. So the State Department education is just not being clear about it. And their letter denying our complaint about this issue reflected that ambiguity. They started talking about how their school district cannot provide exclusively remote instruction, that that’s not allowed. And that, of course, is not the question here.
Dana Jonson 10:35
Well, why can’t they I guess, I don’t understand that. Why can they not? You said they can’t do it. What Why can’t they do it?
Andrew Feinstein, Esq. 10:42
Well, I mean, I think the State Department could do it if they wanted to. That’s just historically they, they don’t issue regulations. They don’t issue directives.
Dana Jonson 10:49
No, I know you when you said about the distance learning, they don’t have to provide it like why are they can’t provide it? Why can’t they? Why is it difficult if extra kids want to be distanced?
Andrew Feinstein, Esq. 11:00
Well, the state statutes require in person attendance. Now, this is an exception to what the statutes require, as was last year, you know, when that was done by executive order.
Dana Jonson 11:09
So kids have to go, that’s the law, they have to be in person in school. So that is why we are mandating that students go back to school.
Andrew Feinstein, Esq. 11:17
That’s right, because there’s plenty of legal authority for exceptions.
Dana Jonson 11:21
Okay. And so we’re looking for an exception. And right now, our state anyway, the state of Connecticut is saying now, there’s no exception, or at least not for you guys, right?
Andrew Feinstein, Esq. 11:29
No, no.
Dana Jonson 11:33
What am I getting wrong?
Andrew Feinstein, Esq. 11:34
There’s no general exception. And kids have to come back to school and you cannot establish a long term program of remote instruction on the one hand, but they are saying please do take steps to accommodate these kids. On the other hand, it’s a complete mixed message. It is completely confusing. And it is leading, you know, even well intentioned superintendents and Dana, you may not believe this, but there are well intentioned superintendents out there to not know what to do.
Dana Jonson 12:01
So how do we guide them?
Andrew Feinstein, Esq. 12:02
How do we guide them? I think, you know, we we work with them, I mean, Marnie has called or reached out to her superintendent who, and hopefully they’ll be able to work out something. If not, there are, you know, of course, legal remedies, but legal remedies take time and cost money. And so it’s not something that most people want to do.
Dana Jonson 12:21
Right and Marnie, I doesn’t seem like this is a bone you plan to drop anytime soon. So that’s just my impression. Am I wrong?
Marney White, PhD, MS 12:29
I mean, I, that’s that’s kind of the thing, you know, at a personal level, could I drop it and move on? Sure. But you know, I’m in public health, my entire life career, emphasis has been trying to help others who are vulnerable. And so this is a conviction that I feel very firmly. And you know, since I started talking about this publicly, by the way, I’m not particularly comfortable disclosing my medical vulnerabilities and making this this big public to do.
Dana Jonson 12:59
I can vouch for that I’ve known Marnie for a number of years before she was a doctor Marnie. And I can vouch for the fact that being on my podcast to talk about her medical status is not where I ever thought you would be.
Marney White, PhD, MS 13:13
Yeah, definitely, definitely not something I enjoy. But I also feel like it’s the right thing to do, because and you know, and I’ve gotten further validation on that, because when I initially went on a brief news segment to discuss this issue, back in February, I started getting flooded with notes from people from around the state and the similar situation with incredibly sad stories of you know, going through cancer treatments, going through bone marrow transplants going through organ transplants, having an incredibly ill family member and feeling as though the State Department education is literally throwing that you’re adding more insult to injury people facing on spousal unemployment for their personal unemployment, trying to navigate complex medical regimens, you know, facing mounting medical bills, and having children who cannot go safely into the school building, lest their very life be compromised, and being denied any kind of educational option and then being told loudly by local politicians and other people that they can just homeschool their children. And this is where, you know, I’ve really kind of just started to flip out because, you know, I’m not trained in elementary education at all, I think it would take an overwhelming amount of hubris to declare myself suddenly competent to be able to teach an elementary aged child, unlike the armchair epidemiologists that have been mouthing off throughout this entire pandemic, I know the limitations of my education and training. I’m not an elementary school teacher. And if I were to be an elementary school teacher, Then why the hell do we have to credential elementary school teachers? It’s just anybody can do it.
Dana Jonson 14:48
That’s a really good point, sir. Well, and to add to that, I used to be certified as an elementary education teacher and I have a master’s in education and I was not prepared. To even help my children with their education when the pandemic happened more or less provided. And in fact, I have several children who are have a foot in the homeschooling world, and I’ve never taught them either. So that is not my skill set, and at least not at this point in time. So I also know that homeschooling isn’t free. I think that’s another piece that people don’t realize. You don’t just get online and find some worksheets, you know, homeschooling isn’t free. Think about what happened last year when kids were sent home with packets and stuff like that, that it’s not easy. It’s not, and again, not free. So, Andy, what legal angles? Can we take now that you filed your complaint that was dismissed? But what are the other legal angles we can take? Because isn’t this discriminatory? for health reasons,
Andrew Feinstein, Esq. 15:48
I would argue it’s a violation of ADA, for a school district to deny educational opportunities to a student because of a disability in their family. I gotta admit, I think that’s a completely untested argument. Because usually, the person claiming discrimination is the person who has the disability rather than one step removed in this case. But I do think that the guidance from the Justice Department nada really relatively covers us. Certainly, the guidance, I don’t wanna get too deep in the weeds, but the guidance on like, the palliation, retaliation talks about a relative of somebody with a disability who’s discriminated against the actual guidance on title two does not but I by analogy, it seems to be the same sort of situation. So I think there’s a credible legal case to be made. But of course, you know, as you know, as well as I do, that the Federal litigation on ADA is many years in the in the process. And I mean, I guess, I suppose one might make an argument to the Connecticut Commissioner on human rights and opportunities, and they might show some interest, and they’ve shown renewed interest in issues of students with disabilities. And so that’s a possibility. There’s also there are a variety of avenues to take,
Dana Jonson 17:06
but this issue isn’t going to go away. And this issue is not going to go away. I mean, now that we have COVID, and I, you know, somebody said to me the other day, they’re like, well, it’s just gonna turn into like a flu shot. We’re just ultimately going to be taking a shot every year, it’s just gonna be like the flu shot. If you don’t take it, it’s not a big deal, blah, blah, blah. I’m like, that’s great. I hope we get there. We’re not there yet. You know, we’re just going nowhere near there. And just because that there are some things we can do to fend off the flu that also work with COVID. Doesn’t mean it’s the same thing.
Andrew Feinstein, Esq. 17:34
And as replied, had wonderful column in the times on Sunday. Exactly on that issue about whether it whether it is becoming the flow and arguing about the sharp differences. I’ll tell you one of the things one of the issues that has confronted us on this has been the whole vaccine issue. Yeah, this is about talking about the the COVID vaccine, I’m talking about the the anti vaxxers, who are a substantial proportion in the state. And the concern expressed by some is, well, if we leave it open, that that families can claim to be immunocompromised, we’re gonna have the same situation that we had with the religious exemption, the vaccines. And you know, again, that’s one of the reasons why the State Department education kicked at the local school districts to make the determination. In the case of Marnie white we have you know, there’s just no question about what’s what’s going on here.
Marney White, PhD, MS 18:28
And you’re still questioning at Andy, I mean, there was in a conversation with one of the State Department education attorneys, there was a question posed to me well, so you’re immunocompromised? And that makes you susceptible to COVID. But when you’ve been susceptible to flu, or any of the other seasonal problems, like why is it an issue with COVID. So people are still not able to understand that COVID is a very unique situation. And in fact, you know, even though I was on this immunosuppressive therapy prior to the onset of the pandemic, I did not have any concerns about teaching in public, or allowing my child to go to school. And the reason I didn’t have those concerns is because it is not the flu. So the flu would not have killed me, I was able to have vaccines to the flu and to pneumonia prior to going on this, let me post depressing therapy, it’s a very distinct hole in the immune system, which just happens to be the one most likely to be targeted by COVID. So it’s a convergence of a very narrow type of immunosuppression as well as an inability to mount the antibodies. So, you know, that’s another 90 sorry, and formed opinions that people from outside of you know, healthcare or epidemiology are posing and putting out there as though again, this is some level of fact when, in fact, you know, total ignorance
Andrew Feinstein, Esq. 19:48
at this question, Who defined the universe of people who you think should be eligible for remote learning due to immuno compromising
Marney White, PhD, MS 19:57
conditions what those are
Dana Jonson 19:59
So if we were making rules,
Andrew Feinstein, Esq. 20:01
if it’s just people have had chemo,
Marney White, PhD, MS 20:03
it depends on the type of chemo. But yes, and it also depends on the length of time, it depends on the status of, you know, how built up their immune system is So, and whether or not they’re able to mount an antibody response. So that is something that is testable. So my suggestion would be, you know, individuals who are able to be vaccinated who are able to not only take the vaccine, you know, there are some people for whom vaccines either would be contraindicated because of a medical vulnerability, or would be perfectly fine to take, but they might not actually develop immunity or develop the antibody. So I would say, you know, a really straightforward way to go about this would be can the person be vaccinated? And if so, did they develop an antibody response? If they develop the antibody response? Well, now there’s no longer a need for elevated concern, because that person would be much less likely to develop a severe case be hospitalized or die?
Andrew Feinstein, Esq. 20:58
Well have, you know, you did not use that you personally did not develop an immune antibody response,
Marney White, PhD, MS 21:04
my physician ordered a test. So my physician was extremely concerned. And actually, there’s an ongoing trial at Gale right now for individuals who have been on V cell depleting therapies. So it’s a swath of people, most of them with multiple sclerosis, others with various types of neurological diseases who are taking these types of treatments. And the study is specifically designed around trying to identify whether or not these patients can develop antibodies. So I was enrolled in that study donated a lot of blood to the repository. I am literally a lab rat right now happy to do it. And and hopefully the next wave of the study will be approved soon, while they’re where they will be able to test the effectiveness of a wave of booster shots to see if kind of like tripling quadrupling down or even crossing the different types of vaccines can can kind of force us into creating antibodies,
Dana Jonson 22:00
can I get that question for that not get approved to when you’re asking about who should be eligible for it. And I just don’t see why anyone shouldn’t be. But what about for people? I mean, if we’re gonna sit back and decide, well, we have to decide whether you are worthy of this distance learning because we have to make sure that someone in your family is actually immunocompromised. And we’re going to go do all this detective work, because that’s worth our time and energy to have one more person on the zoom call. But what about people who like Bill, if you could die from getting COVID, if you could die from getting it, and you get the vaccine, and you develop the antibodies, that’s not an easy adjustment for somebody to make and suddenly got like, I have a severe allergy to fish and something in my test didn’t show up. And my allergist said You haven’t eaten in so long, so it didn’t show up. But don’t go eat sushi, like don’t go out and have a meal of sushi. Because just because it didn’t show up doesn’t mean. And my point being, even if I’m told I can eat fish, I’m not going to go out and eat fish, because for so many years I’ve known that would kill me. So for somebody to ask them to suddenly wrap their brain around now you can go out and just be in public. Is that asking too much? Or am I being too sensitive? Meaning that the stress if you are sick, the stress that you take on makes you sicker? Right? When you have areas sickness. Now we’re saying okay, COVID could kill you. That’s stressful. Now we’re saying, okay, we don’t think COVID will kill you anymore. So you have to go back out into the world now. And I’m just saying, you know, as we do with everything else, don’t people need time to adjust their brains to that?
Marney White, PhD, MS 23:37
I mean, I don’t know that anybody is saying we don’t think COVID is going to kill you anymore. What I hear them saying is we don’t care if COVID kills you.
Dana Jonson 23:44
Ah, that would be a difference.
Marney White, PhD, MS 23:46
Yeah. So you know, while there have certainly been some local politicians and pundits who have declared that, you know, the appropriate thing to do is just to go out into public and let your family live their lives and risk death. My family disagrees. So that’s, that’s kind of where we are.
Dana Jonson 24:02
So nobody’s denying that it’s going to kill you.
Andrew Feinstein, Esq. 24:04
I mean, you’re making.
Dana Jonson 24:06
Everybody knows it will kill me. That that is a fact. And nobody’s denying that. Nobody’s denying that. Okay.
Andrew Feinstein, Esq. 24:12
We’re positing something else day that you’re saying, Why shouldn’t anybody be able to make the choice between remote instruction and in person instruction for this coming school year?
Dana Jonson 24:21
Well, that’s my personal belief. What I’m trying to figure out is how do we make that rule, right? Because if we’re gonna get schools to do that, they’re gonna want rules. So I’m trying to figure out like, how do we make that black and white rule of who gets this distance learning or not? Like, I guess that’s the part I’m not understanding. If we have a program in place, we can put a program in place. Why are we concerned if an extra kid wants to do it? Like why is that a problem? I feel like that’s what I’m hearing. I keep hearing like, but everyone’s gonna want to do it. Well, if everybody wants to do it, maybe we should be doing it. Like I don’t understand the problem.
Marney White, PhD, MS 24:53
Not to mention it’s so cost effective, right, the part that’s been on my mind so even looking at Fairfield Where there was a robust, very, you know, excellent remote Learning Academy, it only cost you know, less than $5,000 per child or something like that, versus the $22,000 per child or whatever it is for in person education. So if you think about the long term implications of cost effectiveness, I mean, of course, it’s a blind sight expensive that integrate this additional brain. So you’re
Dana Jonson 25:22
not the way it happened. But just in general,
Marney White, PhD, MS 25:24
yeah, yeah. But if you think about the potential for longevity of being able to educate children much more cost effectively, I don’t understand where this myth of it being so incredibly expensive is coming from. And we know this at the university level, it’s a lot cheaper to educate people remotely, if they have the stomach for it, if it works for them.
Dana Jonson 25:46
Yeah. But I think that there’s a very, and I think that it has been proven that there are very effective ways to teach online. I don’t think many school districts implored those ways. I mean, I think that’s, you know, what I’m saying? So like, I think that, you know, everyone’s saying that, oh, distance learning is bad. No, it’s not, it can be highly, highly effective and successful. And kids can be social, and they can make friends. And they can do all these things. And they have been doing it forever. I’ve had kids do remote high schools, I mean, clients, and it’s absolutely doable. We didn’t do it. Well, we didn’t have the time, we didn’t know we’re doing we didn’t invest the time and money into the structure we didn’t give as Andy says, we didn’t give good guidance. You know, we’re sort of like every man for himself. Good luck. It’s not my fault. And and that was it. So I guess that is a problem, Andy, I do struggle when people are saying everyone’s gonna want to do it. Well, if everyone wants to do it, what’s the problem? It’s cheaper,
Andrew Feinstein, Esq. 26:42
and, and, you know, in what we had, and what, you know, the American rescue plan provided with the opportunity to reinvent education, this whole notion of in school six hours a day, 180 days a year, you know, is the only way to educate a student is a very, you know, conservative notion. And, you know, it’s really is probably the way in the past, and we’ve got to be lean much more aggressively to other modalities of learning. And you know, and that the two modalities, the three modalities that I’ve been touting are one, you know, we really need a highly high prestige, vocational track in high school for kids, for all those particularly young men who have no interest in Shakespeare, or social sciences, who want to want to be plumbers and electricians, that we don’t have them in society to call a plumber or electrician now, and they’re more likely my age than anybody else’s, they’re more likely in their 60s and 70s, we need those people. And that’s one, too. You know, I think that all kids ought to be outside at least an hour a day, regardless of the weather, as they say, in Germany, you know, there’s no such thing as bad weather, just bad clothing. And you’re gonna learn a whole lot more about science walking through the woods than you are by sitting in a science class. That’s two. And three, the great success that we found there in the hybrid learning is small classes make a huge difference. And if we end up with a bunch of small classes, great. Well, that’s just the new educational model. And this is the opportunity to do it.
Dana Jonson 28:21
I know and I don’t see the downside. That’s what I that’s what’s making me crazy. I’m trying to understand what this downside is what this barrier is, because you know, each age,
Andrew Feinstein, Esq. 28:29
age is a barrier. So we’re afraid institutionally of change?
Dana Jonson 28:33
Yeah. Well, a non disabled kids, I guess, aren’t a protected class, for providing this distance learning for kids with disabilities, but not for kids whose family has disabilities. It doesn’t seem to make sense to me.
Marney White, PhD, MS 28:44
I don’t understand. I don’t understand that 33 states have a public remote education option for K through 1233. States. And, you know, Connecticut prides itself on being progressive and informed and educated. And it’s really I mean, it’s embarrassing that Virginia, sorry, parts of Virginia, it’s my hometown, I’m allowed to attack. You know that Virginia is more progressive than Connecticut. Give me a break.
Dana Jonson 29:10
Yeah, that doesn’t sit right parents. That doesn’t get right. And
Andrew Feinstein, Esq. 29:14
we also have this complete mythology that Connecticut is so far in ahead in terms of education. And you look at this, the scores on the way that comes from the assessment, and we actually did worse, worse in fourth grade math than Texas did.
Marney White, PhD, MS 29:30
No.
Andrew Feinstein, Esq. 29:32
We did.
Dana Jonson 29:32
Yeah. And we keep saying that. We’re great. I don’t understand it. You know, I don’t and you’re right. And we had it, we have a chance we still have a chance to redo things and I’m worried because and Marnie, to your point. And the reason that I think this is such an issue, and we need to bring this to the forefront is it’s not one that’s going to go away. You know, we have a Delta variant out there. People are talking about I’m really hopeful. It’s not going to happen, and I don’t think it is but I hear people already talking about what if they shut down schools again this year, you know, we are not guaranteed an in person school year next year. And so you know, and the other piece of that, which drives me crazy, I know I’m preaching to the choir here. But I’ve had clients in the past in the last 15 or so years, who have ended up with a remote option that was perfectly appropriate for them. But it wasn’t like, individualized by the school, like they were using an online high school class to get their academics. And there were a variety of reasons as to why that work. And the school accepted it. I had three different districts that had one that they accepted, they actually had a program, they said, if you do this one, we will accept it and give you a diploma. So I guess I’m just I’m not understanding the barrier. I’m not getting what it is, and and our whole world is changing. We keep talking about how we have to update our internet laws, right? Because we’re so far behind. What about education? You know, the internet is here, that kid’s entire world is going to be online?
Marney White, PhD, MS 30:57
Yeah. Why don’t know if Andy would probably have a theory around that of like, Why Why can’t we get up to speed here? What is the legal barrier? Why is the safe parent education, you know, choosing to remain in the proverbial Dark Ages on this?
Andrew Feinstein, Esq. 31:13
good they are. Senator McCrory, the Senate chairman of the education committee, has been pushing for a program of remote education. And that’s what’s in the legislation that’s supposed to take effect in a year’s time for high school, remote learning. That’s the compromise. And the State Department was quite resistant to the process. I’m not sure the legislature is necessarily opposed to this. But somebody’s got to do the work to create a model to show the costs that show the the options available to show that kids are going to get an appropriate education using a different model. Yeah. And there’s also the whole, you know, sort of administrator professional thing, this is the way we’ve done it this way, we’ll always do it. Yeah. But that’s what what Barney and I are talking about here is a very limited case of remote instruction. The broader case, also has a lot to be said for it. But it’s it’s based on entirely different arguments.
Dana Jonson 32:07
So we have a problem. We’re trying to address it. In the meantime, as we’ve already said many times this is not going to be solved by September 1. So for families like yours, Marnie, what are the options like what’s, what’s your plan B,
Marney White, PhD, MS 32:22
A, Plan B is to tap into the college savings to pay for a private remote option, and, you know, just feeling option that you have a feeling.
Dana Jonson 32:30
And it’s a good thing, that you have that savings, because for families who don’t, that’s not an option.
Marney White, PhD, MS 32:36
Now, they’ll have to take out loans or, you know, it’s just, again, it’s like the the level of stress that’s compounding, especially when you’re talking about pandemic related unemployment.
Dana Jonson 32:47
Your husband hasn’t shut down his practice. Yep. You know, I know that there are some things that he can still do online, but it’s not anywhere near the practice that he had before. It’s not even a fraction of it. You know,
Marney White, PhD, MS 32:58
right, exactly. Not even 1/10 the level of income. So that’s not, you know, an option. And we are very lucky that we’ve been able to get by and keep us all safe. Yeah. But I know many people are not in that position.
Andrew Feinstein, Esq. 33:12
Well, I don’t want to spend a lot of time exploring plan B’s now. Because we’re still hoping that we can work out something with my comments and superintendent and in
Dana Jonson 33:20
what’s your hope, then what’s your hope for how to provide instruction?
Andrew Feinstein, Esq. 33:23
But you know, if that’s not possible in Fairfield or elsewhere, it seems to me the unilateral placement option under IDEA provides a model for how we do this, which is we basically say that providing this private instruction, here’s the bill pay it, and, you know, they districts will will resist, but a couple of ADA based lawsuits may get them to rethink that. Yeah, yeah, we hope we don’t have to go that road.
Dana Jonson 33:50
But I do too. But if you guys solve this issue, someone somewhere else may have the same issue. And they need a roadmap for solving that, too. So I
Andrew Feinstein, Esq. 33:59
that’s absolutely right. And I think that, you know, I think that, you know, steps one, two, and three is to work with your local school board. Yeah. And step four is to call a lawyer and litigate. I mean, you know, I think there is valid litigation here.
Dana Jonson 34:11
I think you’re right.
Andrew Feinstein, Esq. 34:12
But I you know, it’s it’s just, it is just a shame. It is just a shame that the State Department of Education, you know, stuck its head in the sand sand worse than that did in a way that was just this honest, illogical, and not based on science. It is just really discouraging to see a state agency that I actually work with very closely of acts so irresponsibly.
Dana Jonson 34:35
Yeah, and I agree with you. And I think it’s unfortunate. We have a possible solution and no one’s willing to take the time to figure it out. So I’m hopeful
Marney White, PhD, MS 34:44
no one’s willing to push the button to figure it out. It’s not even taking the time, right.
Dana Jonson 34:49
They’re not even there yet. They haven’t even gotten to that they won’t even entertain the idea yet so that you can’t get very far if you want to entertain the idea. Well, I do hope that you’re Situation progresses well, and that you are able to get instruction for lane. But more so than that I am hopeful that this will help educate people and get the word out there and let people know who are by themselves and think they’re the only ones in the world going through this you are not I love Andy, what you said about using the unilateral placement as a model. And I think that is a great way to go. So I I’m not going to explain that right now. I’m not, I’m not giving anyone legal advice. But if you are in the situation where your child cannot go to school, because somebody in your house is compromised, definitely consult with an attorney, maybe start with a special education attorney, because they will know what the rules are about school. And that’s a good place to start. And that model is a good one to follow. Are there any other recommendations that you guys would make for parents out there who are in the situation right now?
Andrew Feinstein, Esq. 35:50
You know, our main strategy has been public pressure here, public pressure, that’s what we’ll continue to do. And, you know, it’s up to local school boards, then, you know, I think Marnie is at play, right, the local school boards have got to understand that this is actually a cheaper option for them, not a more expensive option,
Dana Jonson 36:06
I haven’t always found
Andrew Feinstein, Esq. 36:07
really, really inexpensive option, the really inexpensive option would be for the state to provide a program of remote instruction at various grade levels for all districts that all districts could access. And you know, because this is general education, it’s that special education, it’s not individualized. And so the state could provide the program of remote instruction, either directly or by contract and eliminate this problem.
Dana Jonson 36:29
Yeah, yeah. I don’t really see that I guess I don’t see the problem and offering it for anybody Make your choice? Do you want to be in person? Or do you want to be at home and making parents pay for homeschooling seems just ridiculous to me. As far as the academics go, I get all the other stuff. But like, I just don’t understand why I don’t understand a lot. I don’t know, what
Andrew Feinstein, Esq. 36:48
was the state of education continually complains about homeschooling, saying that they have no control over the content, here’s an opportunity where they can actually have some control over the content, and provide the option that so many parents want.
Marney White, PhD, MS 37:02
I know that that so many people had suggested making fairfields the example or you know, like creating a robust, keeping the remote Learning Academy open and then allowing other districts to pay into it, you know, essentially being at the forefront of this, considering they did it so successfully. They won’t release the data. I don’t have official data, all I know is that every single person I know, who was involved in the remote Learning Academy has experienced and really good outcomes. So I believe the data are available. We have test scores available, they won’t release them, I
Dana Jonson 37:36
can you FOIA them, Freedom of Information Act?
Marney White, PhD, MS 37:40
perhaps I would like to. Well, yeah, but there was a real opportunity. And instead of you know, actually promoting the remote Learning Academy and making it available to other districts, they chose instead to vilify it, and to create this narrative where supposedly the existence of the rla is what prevented other kids to from going back to school full time. I mean, forget the backdrop of the pandemic, then people getting sick. Apparently, it was just this remote learning,according to local management, and some of
Dana Jonson 37:41
that probably makes total sense because it’s the same way that special education takes all the money away from other students all the time. Like all of it, right. They don’t they don’t have any other money leftover. So, you know, I got done again, that’s me being sarcastic for anyone who doesn’t Yeah, homie. Well,
Marney White, PhD, MS 38:23
yeah, ironically enough, the same Board of Ed members who vilified the remote options are the ones who are loudest about getting special education services. So that was an ironic one.
Dana Jonson 38:32
Oh, that’s interesting.
Marney White, PhD, MS 38:33
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
38:34
Well, it’s also I mean, the Fairfield board also, you know, embarrassed, soiled itself in public by sending a letter to the state, against masks.
Dana Jonson 38:44
What was that about?
Marney White, PhD, MS 38:45
Oh, no, it’s still going on. I actually, along with some other faculty at Yale Sacred Heart and Mount Sinai School of Public Health sent a letter recently to the Board of Health, I’m sorry, the Board of Education, outlining all of the critical reasons that masks in school remain necessary, and actually received some pushback from members of the Board of Education challenging the points. From a completely uninformed perspective. I mean, we’re talking about a battery of five MDS and PhDs who specialize in these topics and someone with no experience whatsoever in health epidemiology, infectious disease at all saying, You know what, I think you’re wrong on that point. You know, because I saw some blog somewhere, something on social media, so I don’t really believe what you’re saying, right? It’s I can’t say there’s no global warming.
Dana Jonson 39:31
I’m cold. So there’s no global warming.
Marney White, PhD, MS 39:33
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So the hubris with which individuals who are clearly this is not in their domain to push back against.
Dana Jonson 39:41
They’re completely unqualified.
Marney White, PhD, MS 39:43
Oh, yeah. I’ve read that about myself. I’m unqualified to teach about the pandemic. I literally teach it. That’s what you do. You have a degree in it. Right. I don’t think I think Yale pays you to talk about it. Right? Do they do they give you money and then you talk to them. I love that. I love that, that that that sounds to me, like someone who knows what they’re talking about just gonna be out there. Yeah, I do hope that this comes to a positive ending for you guys. And I also hope that it starts a bit of a movement everywhere else because I don’t see this going in a different direction. I mean, we’ve heard a number of times over the pandemic, this isn’t the last pandemic we’re gonna have. It’s, you know, we need to keep an eye on this. And we need to be cautious and we need to be doing this smart. And hopefully this will give people some motivation to raise their voices and help encourage schools to do the right thing. And for people who are listening who say, Well, I clearly need to call Andy Feinstein right now because he needs to hear my story. Andy, how can they reach you? I love the silence Not at all. Not at all.
40:46
Email is [email protected]
Dana Jonson 40:53
Excellent. And that will be in my show notes. I’m gonna have all their contact information in my show notes. So if you’re listening to this,
40:58
you’ve got it. You can put a you can put it all down there. But there are also a number of other highly qualified special education attorneys in the state. one that comes to mind is a woman named Dana Jonson.
Dana Jonson 41:10
I haven’t heard of her shanigan What does she does she know anything? I don’t know.
Andrew Feinstein, Esq. 41:16
A little sarcastic at times.
Dana Jonson 41:17
Just every now and again. Not all the time just and Dr. Marnie white for people who say you are speaking their truth, and they want to join your movement. How are they going to find you?
Marney White, PhD, MS 41:27
Well, we have a Facebook group, Connecticut families in need of remote education, that would be the best way to try to get together people petition on change.org if you search learning way, so I will put
Dana Jonson 41:40
the link to all that in the show notes. Oh, that’s I will make that simple for everybody. So yeah, so the Facebook page is Connecticut families in need of what? remote educational education. I’ll send you the link. Okay, send me the link. And I will send all that stuff in the show notes so that you can reach Andy or Marnie if you need to. In the meantime, please raise your voices for the other families who need this remote instruction. Encourage your school boards to consider it and encourage your State Department of Education to consider it. Thank you. And thank you guys for joining me. Thank you. Thank you so much for joining me today. Please don’t forget to follow this podcast. You don’t miss any new episodes and leave a review and you have a chance. If there’s anything you want to hear about or comment on. Please go to my Facebook page special ed on special ed and find me there. I’ll see you next time here on special ed on special ed have a fabulous day. The views expressed in this episode are those of the speakers at the time of the recording do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any other agency organization, employer or company or even that individual today.
