Initially published at “Need to Know with Dana Jonson” – the podcast was rebranded as “Special Ed on Special Ed” but I kept the old episodes so you don’t lose any content! Enjoy!

A transcript of this episode can be found at SpecialEd.fm

• “What makes an IEP different from a 504 Plan in special education?”

• “How can understanding these distinctions empower parents in advocating for their child’s education?”

• “What are the key factors to consider when choosing between an IEP and a 504 Plan?”

Discover the differences between IEPs and 504 Plans in the realm of special education on my fist podcast episode. I dive deep into how these programs support students with disabilities, offering insights for parents and educators on navigating educational accommodations. Learn about the origins, purposes, and impacts of IEPs and 504 Plans, and empower yourself to make informed decisions for your child’s education.

TRANSCRIPT (not proofread) 

SUMMARY KEYWORDS
iep, child, disability, school district, special education, student, accommodations, parents, schools, require, ida, specialized instruction, plan, ips, iep meeting, special ed, evaluation, education, year, goals

SPEAKERS
Dana Jonson

Dana Jonson  00:03

Hello, and welcome to need to know a Dana Jonson. I’m your host, Dana Jonson. And I’m here to give you the information you need to know, to best advocate for your child. I’m a special education attorney in private practice, a former special education teacher and administrator, a current mom to four children with IPS. And I myself have ADHD and dyslexia. So I have approached the world of disability and special education from many angles. And I’ll provide straightforward information about your rights and your schools obligations, as well as tips and tricks for working with your school district. My goal is to empower you through your journey. So if there’s anything you want to hear or comment on, you can find me and this podcast at special ED dot life. You can also find me on Instagram at special ED dot life. Or you can email me, Dana at special ED dot life. Now the first thing you need to know is that sometimes I have a bit of a potty mouth. So if your environment isn’t ready for that, feel free to pop in your earbuds. Okay, let’s get started.

Today is the very first episode of my podcast. So I am super excited to get it up and running. I want to take a minute to let you know what my expectations are for the podcast. So each episode will be a discussion about some specific topic in the world of disability or special education. As whenever possible. I will invite guests, other professionals who can share their knowledge, their background, their experiences, and provide information for parents to help them best advocate for their child. But sometimes it’s going to be just me, and today is one of those days. Today I want to talk to you about 504 plans and IEP s. And the reason I chose this for my first episode is because if you have a child with disabilities, the two most important terms you should know are 504 An IEP. If you don’t already know this, there’s a ton of jargon and acronyms and stuff like that that’s almost impossible to remember in the world of Special Education and Disability. So I will do my best to define all of them and hopefully demystify them for you. 

I have parents call my office quite often telling me that yes, their child has a disability, yes, they’ve been identified. Yes, they’re getting services. And then I get the documentation. And it’s actually a 504 plan. And that’s a huge difference. The reason it’s a huge difference is that 504 plans and IPS fall under different laws that do different things. And from an attorney’s perspective, for me as an attorney, my major concern in the difference between the two is that families and students have significantly less protections under Section 504 than they do under the IEP for purposes of their child’s education. So I want to go through fiber fours and IPS kind of step by step the different main areas of them and how they differ. 

504 plans come from section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973. So it’s a super original name. We went from section 504 to 504 plans. And the Rehabilitation Act of 1973 is a federal civil rights law that prohibits discrimination on the basis of a variety of things, including disabilities. And for your children in public school. What that means is that their public school is receiving federal funding, and therefore they may not discriminate based on your child’s disability, IPS. 

On the other hand, they fall under the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act, or the IDE. You’ve probably heard of the IDE. Some people call it idea. I do not. I prefer IDE. So that’s what I’ll stick with. And what the IDE does is it governs special education. It is also a Civil Rights Act that says your child is entitled to a special education plan that meets your child’s unique needs based on their disability, and that they require specialized instruction, accommodations and services. Basically, section 504 covers the how, how is your child going to learn? How are they going to receive the information they need to learn? How are they going to be assessed on it? The how the IDA covers the what? So what are they going to learn? If your child has a disability that requires specific instruction? That’s a departure from the regular curriculum, and that is why it’s called Special Education. 

At this point, I just want to point out that special education only Lee exists in public schools, I think that’s really important to remember. And I would argue state approved special education schools. Because those state approved special education schools are meeting specific requirements that your state has for them to implement this special education. And kids who are going to those schools are going because they’re in special education, and their district can’t provide what they need. Once you leave the public school, it’s not special education anymore. So I like to make that really clear, because sometimes I think we forget. And special ed is just a term that gets used a lot and thrown around. But I digress. So let’s get back on track. 

So section 504, is governed or overseen, I should say, by the Office for Civil Rights, which is under the US Department of Education. The ID EA is also overseen by an agency in the US Department of Education, and that is the Office for Special Education and Rehabilitation Services. So OCR Office of Civil Rights is where you would go file your complaint, and your complaint for 504. If you had an issue, and the Department of Education, the Office of Special Education Rehabilitation Services is where you go to address your issues under the IDE i 504. Covers people basically for their entire life. So at any point, if you’re somewhere that is receiving federal funds, they may not discriminate against you based on your disability, you are entitled to reasonable accommodations. 

And my next question that I usually get is what’s reasonable? And that’s a great question. Thank you for asking. Reasonable Accommodations varies depending on the case, depending on the facts. And it’s outlined throughout case law. The same is true for an IEP in many, many areas. Some of the definitions aren’t as specific as we would like. And it’s those definitions that we’re fighting with schools over things like if you have an AI an IEP, you’re entitled to what’s called an appropriate program. There was a case that said that kids were entitled to a Chevy, not a catalog. And my argument is, well, the Chevy needs an engine, right. But through different cases, it has been narrowed down under specific facts as to what these terms mean. And that would be way too much for me to get into in one podcast, because I really want to get through all the main differences. But I think that’s really important to identify. 

So 504 will cover you throughout your life if you’re someplace with federal funds. The IEP however, IPS cover you from age three to 21 while you’re in special education. Now, if you’re a legal dork like I am, I will let you know, because you want to go look this up and research it that part B of the IDA is what covers special education from three to age 21. Part seek, however, is what covers ages zero to three. I’m not going to talk about Birth to Three right now. But if you want to go look that up. That’s where you’re going to find all your information. Part A in case you’re curious, lays the foundation gives a lot of definitions. It’s basically the information you need before you go through the rest of the document. So for my legal dorks have fun with that. 

So who’s eligible for a 504 plan or an IEP? Well, I’m hoping it’s obvious at this point that the child has to have a disability, that would be a key component. And under 504, you can be perceived to have a disability. So even if you’re not diagnosed, but people believe that you do, for example, an obvious example with 504 Is the person in a wheelchair, right? That, okay, we know you have a disability, you’re in a wheelchair. And so does that disability impact any major life activities? Well, if your science lab is on the second floor, and you’re in a wheelchair, and there is no elevator, then Yep, it does. It absolutely impacts a major life activity and that major life activity is learning. So under those circumstances, and that 504 plan might say that the students allowed to carry an elevator key so that they can take the elevator up, or that they’re going to put ramps in or a stair lift or whatever it is they’re going to do. 

For students with say ADHD, they may qualify for a 504 If they don’t require specialized instruction. And that would look like extra time for assignments or tests, assistance, getting notes, or chunking their assignments, breaking them down into smaller pieces so that they can follow them. But it would definitely follow the same curriculum as Other students in their grade. So they’re, they’re following the same curriculum. An IEP is special education. So what that means is that the child cannot learn through regular education. So their education needs to be special to qualify for special education under an IEP. And I don’t believe I explained what IEP is. 

So that is an individual education plan, IEP. To qualify for that, you also need to have a disability, but you need to have a disability that falls under one of 13 categories. So I’m going to rattle them off right now. They are specific learning disability, which includes dyslexia, dysgraphia, dyscalculia, auditory processing disorders, nonverbal learning disorder, and all of that falls under specific learning disability. Oh hai. other health impaired is what I refer to as the catch all. That’s kind of an umbrella category. But it’s specific to kids with ADHD and ADD, you usually see that on the IEP that it’ll say other health impaired ADHD add, but it also can encompass other components of the child is very complicated. Autism Spectrum Disorder, emotional disturbance, which I would love to see change to emotional disability, because many of our students with what is considered emotional disturbance are not disturbed. They have a disability. So that’s my plug for changing the definition of Edie. Speech. And language impairment is one of the categories of visual impairment, which includes being blind, deafness, hearing impairment, which is different from deafness. Deaf and Blind is its own category. orthopedic impairment, so that would be students with, say, cerebral palsy, that’s an example of an orthopedic impairment, intellectual disability, intellectual disabilities, the quote unquote magic number that I always hear is, their IQ needs to be below 70. So if you’re below 70, you’re typically considered intellectually disabled, and then multiple disabilities. And that is for extremely complicated students. And at least in my career, I haven’t used it very often, actually, quite rarely. 

So basically, 504 plans cover the how, how is the student going to learn? The IP, on the other hand, is addressing the What what are you going to learn? You require specialized instruction. So what is that going to be? And what is that going to look like? Okay, so the next area is written plans. Under 504, there is no obligation for a written plan. That being said, most schools that I work with, do create a written document. And you need to outline in your plan the accommodations a student needs, what the disability is, how it impacts them, and what the school is going to provide as a result of it. I pee on the other hand, has a number of requirements and things that need to be inside of that document. It’s not just a written document that’s required, but it’s a legally binding document. And it’s going to outline the goals, it’s going to talk about the services and any accommodations a student needs, it’s going to talk about the students present levels of functioning. So you can’t develop goals and objectives if you don’t know where the student is. Right. So you’ve got to outline that first. 

And it does need to be in a written plan. And there is a process through which you come to an IEP, and the school district must follow that. And it does need to be in writing. So how do we figure out if kids need a five a four or an IEP? How do we make that determination? Well, we start with an evaluation. Now, under 504, the law doesn’t specifically require evaluation procedures, it just says periodically, or periodic. So I have found, at least in my practice, that very rarely do school districts do an evaluation solely for 504. I find that students who get a five a four because they didn’t qualify for an IEP, those kids often have an evaluation because you need to do an evaluation to determine eligibility for a child who requires special education. So your initial evaluation needs to be standardized assessments and it needs to be revisited every three years. And that’s a must. You must re evaluate the child every three years if they have an IEP. There is no such requirement under 504 which is just astounding to me, but that is the world we live in. 

That being said again, most schools that I deal with, do do a 504 meeting and revise the plan every year on an annual basis. So I’ve found that most districts kind of mimic the IEP process. And I think that might be where parents get confused. Because it’s not an IEP process. It is 504. And speaking of parents, schools must get permission from parents to evaluate, no matter what, whether you’re looking at 504, whether you’re looking for an IEP, if you’re going to do a standardized assessment of a child, a full evaluation, you’re going to need the parents permission. Under 504, you do need to notify the parents that they’ve been referred to 504. But you don’t really need to include the parents, you don’t need consent, unless it’s a real full evaluation, as I mentioned, very few places do that, you don’t need the parents input to write the document, and you don’t need their input to implement the document. So parents can be parts of the file for team and their small pieces where they have to be where consent is required. But there’s no mandate that you include parents, under APS, however, it is mandated, you do need to include the parents, they are an equal part of the IEP team. 

Now, if any of you have ever sat through an IEP meeting, you’re going to know that when you’re sitting at that table with the 10 to 20, other adults that they decided were important components of your child’s education, it doesn’t feel like you’re an equal partner, because it’s just you, and a whole bunch of professionals. But you our parents are required to be part of the IEP team. And school districts must do their best to include parents. A lot of times they get parents to call and say, but I work during the day, and I have to do it at night. And they won’t do it on a Saturday and all these things. And again, we’re going to a reasonableness factor here. School districts can’t mandate that teachers come in on the weekend or at night, that would not be considered reasonable. So I tell parents, if you have a child with disabilities, and you’re going to have to attend IEP meetings, they are very often going to have to be during the school day. 

The caveat to that is they also need to happen in the summer, if they are needed. School districts are obligated to put together a team and those VIP table if they need to review the IEP and you as a parent can request that. So when your school district says we don’t do that over the summer, that’s not right, they need to do it over the summer, they don’t need to find all of the individuals who work with your child and get them to the table, they would have to have a speech and language person, if you’re talking about speech and language. If they have any evaluations to review, there must be someone at that table who knows how to review them. If your child participates in regular education, at any level, then there needs to be a regular education teacher there who can speak to the regular education curriculum. And there must also be someone there who has the authority to make decisions. So if you are requesting, say, an assessment of your child, if the answer is we don’t know, we have to go check with somebody else. That’s not acceptable. 

So those are the roles that must be at an IEP meeting. But they don’t necessarily have to be your child’s team. It would absolutely be best practice for school districts to have your child’s team there. And in my experience, most tried to do that. I have seen schools call teachers over the summer and say, Hey, I know you’re off. But could you come to this PPT because it’s really important. And we want your input because you know that kid, I do see schools do that all the time. I also see schools who don’t even have the correct team in the meeting during the regular school year. That is incredibly problematic. If your school district is not willing to corral all the people who are on your child’s team during the school year when those people are obligated to be there. I think that sends a pretty strong message. So those are the parameters pretty much for an IEP meeting. But they do have to hold them in the summer, if you need one. 

We talked a little bit about this, but I’m going to circle back to customized curriculum. And under 504, the curriculum is not customized for the child. The curriculum could be broken down. So say if your child has, let’s say it takes them three hours to do what most children need one hour to do that providing maybe less homework for that student. So say whatever they could manage within an hour, that would be an appropriate modification under 504. But the curriculum is the same. So it’s the same work the other kids are getting, they might just get less of it. But they’re on the same curriculum. They’re learning the same level education, all of those components. Under the IEP, however, there must be an individual plan, and that needs to meet the individual needs of the student. And that is because they require specialized instruction. So you need to provide different instruction to that child that you are not providing to the other children. 

So customized curriculum absolutely is part of the IEP. And that customization can be a modified assignment, like shorter homework, or maybe assistance, breaking down long term assignments, things like that. But it can also be a different curriculum. So if your child is not on grade level, in either direction, above or below, they could be provided a different curriculum that can happen under an IEP, that cannot happen under a 504. So that brings me to goals and objectives. Under 504, there’s absolutely no requirement for goals, and there’s no requirement to monitor the child’s progress. So you just have the accommodations that people who work with the child have to implement them. And that’s that, under the IDE, a are under an IEP, however, is the obligation that they must have annual goals, goals that are for a full year. And under those you’ll have short term objectives, you’ve probably heard the term smart goals are SMART objectives. 

And SMART is an acronym. It stands for specific, measurable, achievable, results and time limited. So your goals and objectives need to be specific. What are you teaching this child? How are you going to measure it? How are you going to monitor it? And how long will it take for the student to accomplish that goal and objective. So I’m hoping by now you’re starting to see why attorneys tend to prefer the IEP to 504 plans, there’s a lot more requirements, and there’s a lot more meat to it. Under the 504, you get accommodations, and those accommodations are meant to level the playing field. That means that if children with ADHD get extended time perhaps because they can’t do the same amount of work in the same time as a student who does not have ADHD. So if it takes want your student an hour to do the exam, it might take a student with ADHD an hour and a half or two hours, or they might need breaks in between, they’re still getting the same exam, they’re still covering the same material. But those are accommodations. And that’s all they are, are accommodations. And that allows them to access their education, I hear a lot. Well, anyone could benefit from that if I had extra time, I would do better to Well, if that’s the case, then you probably have a disability. Because what they’ve learned is that kids who don’t have disabilities, who are given too much time to do work, tend to go back and second guess themselves, change answers, etc. 

When you’re giving a child extra time on a test, it’s not so that they have more time to go back and check their work and change their answers. It is so that they can complete the task. And a lot of you’ll say, well, that’s not real life. Maybe not, but neither school or public school. So in public school, our goal is to educate them, and hopefully, ultimately teach them how to accommodate for themselves. But under 504, that’s all you’re getting are the accommodations, the modifications you might get are minimal. Like I said before, if a child needs long term assignments broken down, that might be a modification. If they require less homework, that might be a modification, but there really there’s nothing else going on there. Under IPs, you also get accommodations and modifications. 

So if your student with ADHD, and you need an IEP, because you need specialized instruction, you can also get that time and a half or a separate setting or whatever it is that you require. There’s a separate page specifically for accommodations. And that is where you document what the student requires. They also get services. So under 504, the student isn’t eligible for any extra services. So if you have a 504 plan for specific services like speech and language, ot PT, I would really question whether that child should actually be under an IEP and whether they should have a full evaluation or not. Under the IEP a student is eligible for services like speech and language, ot PT, counselling, all of those components can be added to the IEP if that’s what the child needs, they need specific instruction in those areas. So those are the components that A students with disabilities are entitled to if they qualify for Section 504 plan or an IEP, now the meat of where I see the difference. And I hope that you’ve already seen there are a ton of differences. 

But as an attorney, the part that concerns me are the procedural safeguards. And what that means is what you as a parent or your student can do, when things aren’t going right, when you need to argue with the school district, when you come to an impasse. And under 504, there really aren’t a lot of guidelines that protect the rights of the child or the parent. And school systems are asked to create their own process. And it’s usually within the school. So I refer to it as kangaroo court. Usually, when we have a problem with the 504 plan, if you ask to contest it, then the people you’re contesting it with is usually the superintendent, or maybe the director of special ed, it really shouldn’t be because those two things should be separate. But I’ve had that happen too. 

And then you have a discussion, where you still don’t agree. And then if you decide to have a hearing, some districts will then bring in a different board attorney, which means another person who represents school districts to sit over the discussion. And I myself have never seen this be productive. So under the IDA, however, there’s a clearly defined set of procedural safeguards that the school district must follow. And that is everything from prior written notice to going to a hearing. So if you disagree with what’s going on with your child’s education, that they either are under an IP or they should be under an IP and they’re not, then you have specific recourses, you can ask the district to go to mediation, you can file for due process. 

And then the due process hearing is overseen by an impartial person, you can’t see my air quotes, but they’re happening. And those people are hired by the state because the IDA falls under the Federal Department of Education and your State Department of Education falls under that. So you’re going to your State Department of Education to argue your issues. There are also a ton of guidelines under the IDE a that tells school districts how long they have to do evaluations, when they must hold an IEP meeting, how you as a parent must be notified and how much time in advance, you need to be notified. All those components are outlined under the IDE A, and they’re very specific. And so for attorneys, if a child requires an IEP, then my position is given an IEP. And I have had parents come to me and say, well, the school district doesn’t want to identify him yet. We don’t want this to follow the college, whatever the issue is. And from my perspective, if your child requires specialized instruction, then they require an IEP. And that’s where you should be leaning. 

There isn’t a benefit, from my perspective to standards section 504 plan if you actually require an IEP, but I’ve heard some school districts offer that. In fact, my favorite, my favorite story is a parent called me and told me that when the school district was not implementing the 504 plan, the principal actually said to them, maybe we should give her an IEP because I can’t get the staff to follow the 504 plan. But maybe I can get them to follow an IEP no lie. That was something a parent told me. And so there weren’t a lot of resources for that parent under 504. But under an IEP, when the child was identified, all of these procedural safeguards went into place. And so when there is a dispute or disagreement, you have so many protections. 

So continuing up on that college piece, will it follow them to college? I hear that a lot. Will if they if they’re identified as special ed, is this going to take them to college? Is it going to stop them from getting into colleges who’s going to see it all of those components? And cyber four does cover you for your life in areas that take public funds. So if you go to a federally funded college, then yeah, 504 protects you. And you can receive the same accommodations, but you have to go to the college. And they often require certain documentation or certain evidence that you have had these accommodations and utilize them. So that’s another piece. When I hear parents say, well, he doesn’t want to use the accommodations he’s offered because because because, well when he gets to college, he may need those accommodations and if he hasn’t been using them, and it’s documented that he has been quote unquote successful without those accommodations. It’s highly unlikely that college is going to then suddenly put them in place the Ida IEPs do not follow you to college, they don’t go to college, there is no special education in college, there should be a document written when a child exits, special education. 

And there are three ways to exit it, you are discharged because you met all of the goals and objectives and your disability was completely remediated and you no longer need assistance. Or perhaps you only require accommodations now, so you can go to a five before you graduate from high school, so you get that diploma. I always tell parents, if you have concerns about your child’s education, please do not wait until the week before graduation to call me because or worse the week after having that graduation reversed is incredibly difficult. So you may no longer need special education that will exit you if you get a high school diploma that will exit you. And the year that you turn 21. If you still require services, after what would typically be considered your senior year, you can be entitled to services up until the school year of your 21st birthday. So that definitely follows you beyond high school, but it doesn’t follow you to college. 

Here’s the good news. The good news is many colleges are realizing that kids require additional services. So there are several levels, or three levels, I guess, of what colleges offer. So there’s the basic level of yeah, we’ll comply with Section 504. But you have to jump through a ton of hoops, and it’s not gonna be easy for you, and we don’t really care about it. The next level is they have a specific, maybe a study center or a program of some kind, but it’s separate from the colleges on the college campus. Sometimes it’s an extra fee for parents. So if you have a child with learning disabilities, you might send them to a school that has this additional support center. But the student is expected to seek it out. They are going and finding your student and saying hey, you got to test next week, let’s study. And the more intensive version is schools that have programs within their program. So if their study program is incorporated into the classes, so maybe those tutors do know when your homework is due, so that they can help you make sure you get through that process. 

And again, I do hear well, that’s not real life. Nope, it’s college. College is not real life. Again, we’re trying to learn here. So as long as we’re trying to teach these children, the more independent and the better contributor to society that any student with a disability becomes, the less money it will cost the taxpayers. So it is completely worth it for school districts to invest in children at a younger age to remediate their disabilities because it does cost society significantly less money down the road. So those are the main differences between 504 plans and IPs. They come from different laws, they have different purposes. They have different agencies that oversee them. They cover different ages of students, their eligibility requirements are different. One needs a written plan one does not their evaluation process is outlined differently. Parent involvement is substantially different, whether you can have customized curriculum, how often those plans are reviewed, what the goals and objectives of those plans are all different requirements, particularly that 504 doesn’t have them. And the IDA does the fact you can get services and your procedural safeguards. 

So if you have an issue with your school district, if you feel like your child should be identified as special education or you have reason to believe that your child has a disability, then my very strong recommendation is that you have them evaluated for special education. And your school district will conduct a full evaluation or what we call a full evaluation or a psycho educational evaluation. And then the team will make a determination as to whether your child qualifies for an IEP or a 504 plan. If you disagree with that. I already talked a little bit about the kangaroo court that happens under 504. 

Another option under 504 is to file a complaint with the Office for Civil Rights. And you can look that up online. Find out where your Office for Civil Rights is because it’s regional. And my experience with OCR is that they’re very nice. You can give them a call and someone will walk you through the process and talk about what may or may not constitute a complaint. So the Office for Civil Rights will then go in and investigate that with your school district and come to a resolution. Now their answer is going to be how We make sure this doesn’t happen again. So you’re not necessarily getting something specifically for your child. It’s not necessarily about their education unless it’s that something not being implemented. If your IEP is not being implemented, you can go and complained about OCR, I would recommend you go through the IDA process however, because you have a lot more teeth, and if it is an IDA issue, OCR will not investigate it. And under the IDA, if you have a dispute with your district, you have access to informal negotiations, mediation, due process hearings, and appealing those due process hearings to state or federal court. So you have a lot of options. Or I should say a lot more options. Here’s what you have. So that’s it for five oh fours versus IPs. I hope that this was helpful to you, and that you can now see why these items are different why these two documents are so different, and what might be best for your child.

Dana Jonson  36:10

Thank you so much for joining me today. Please don’t forget to subscribe to this podcast so that you get notifications whenever new episodes are available. You can also find this podcast on his website at special ED dot life. You can follow me on Instagram at special ED dot life or you can email me at Dana at special ED dot life. I want to know what you want to know. So please reach out with your comments and questions. And I’ll see you next time here on need to know with Dana Jonson Have a great day.