Shortly after publication, a transcript for this episode will be posted on SpecialEd.fm
Advocacy Insights with Diana Fannon
Host: Dana Jonson
Guest: Diana Fannon, Special Educaiton Director and School Psychologist
Introduction:
Dana Jonson introduces Diana Fannon, a Director of Special Education and a former school psychologist. Diana shares her personal journey with epilepsy and how it has influenced her approach to advocacy and education.
Resources Mentioned:
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Disability Ed Pros Website: www.disabilityedpros.com
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Free Webinar on Demystifying the Path to Eligibility: www.disabilityedpros.com/
webinar -
Instagram: @DisabilityEdPros
Call to Action:
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Share the Episode with a Friend: Help spread the valuable insights from this episode by sharing it with friends or family members navigating the special education system.
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Leave a Review: Support the podcast by leaving a review on your favorite podcast platform. Your feedback helps reach more listeners and provide support to more families.
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Follow Disability Ed Pros on Social Media: Stay updated with the latest resources, tips, and support by following Diana Fannon’s initiative, Disability Ed Pros, on Instagram.
This episode serves as a comprehensive resource for parents and guardians in the special education process, offering Diana Fannon’s expert insights and personal experiences to guide and empower families.
TRANSCRIPT (not proofread)
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
parents, iep,
child, school psychologist, happen, work, meetings, district, disability, talk,
kids, iep meeting, advocate, director, classroom, students, understanding,
request, concerns, document
SPEAKERS
Diana Fannon,
Dana Jonson
Dana Jonson
00:08
Welcome
back to Special Ed on special ed. My name is Dana Jonson and I am your host and
today my guest is Diana Fannon. And she has a background in special education
that I don’t believe I posted yet on this podcast and that is Director of
Special Education. She also has background as a school psychologist. And in her
journey, Diana has faced significant challenges from a life altering epilepsy
diagnosis at 17. And other challenges throughout her personal life and
professionally, she has had over 22 years of experience as a bilingual school
psychologist and a director of special education. Diana is passionate about
using her journey to support others and is dedicated to empowering parents and
navigating special education. She aims to foster understanding and positive
change within the education system. And today we’re going to discuss parent
advocacy through the lens of the school psychologist and director of special
education. So thank you, Diana, for joining me.
Diana Fannon
01:03
Thank
you for having me. I’m really excited to be here. Absolutely.
Dana Jonson
01:06
But
before we can talk naturally, I have to have my disclaimer. So let’s play that
first. The information in this podcast is provided for general informational
and entertainment purposes only, and may not reflect the current law in your
jurisdiction at the time you’re listening. Nothing in this episode, create an
attorney client relationship, nor is it legal advice, do not act or refrain
from acting on the basis of any information included and accessible through
this episode without seeking appropriate legal or other professional advice on
particular facts and circumstances at issue from a lawyer or service provider
license in your state country or other appropriate licensing jurisdiction. So
Dan, welcome. Thank you so much for joining me, I wanted to start with I know
you have a journey that brought you to where you are today that I’d love to
hear about. And I’d also like to understand a little bit about the roles of
school psychologist and director of special education. So I was hoping you
could maybe start us off with a little bit of your background,
Diana Fannon
01:50
I’d love
to share. So I’ll start just with my wife, my diagnosis, and then my journey
that way. So I was had a pretty pretty typical childhood for the most part, and
then the sort of a surprise diagnosis of epilepsy at 17. Although I guess it’s
always a surprise when people get typing. So
Dana Jonson
02:09
it’s
interesting that that’s when it came up. Yeah, as as opposed to I would I would
presume it would be earlier Right? Like you have it Are you down? Was it just
not noticed? Or did you did it just onset just 17
Diana Fannon
02:22
on so it
was just at 17? You know, I was I was an athlete, I was I was pretty healthy.
Nothing really happened up until that point. And then I had had some mild
tremors in the few times when I’d like dropped some things and, and then at 17
I, I was up early for winter break swim practice at 4:45am. And instead of
going to the pool, I got a trip to the hospital. So that was that was how it
started. And, and I didn’t have too many more seizures after that medication
controlled it pretty well. But college was sort of a challenging time for me
because I wanted to you know, I wanted to fit in with everybody else. And I
wanted to stay up late and go to parties and do all the things that kids do in
college and epilepsy doesn’t really like to stop. Oh, yeah.
Dana Jonson
03:10
No, it
does not. I’ve heard rumors. Yeah.
Diana Fannon
03:13
Yes. It
wants it wants you in bed at once you keeping normal hours and eating healthy
foods and not consuming alcohol and doing all the things that you’re
Dana Jonson
03:23
supposed
to do. And so basically I want you to be a freshman in college is what exactly
I was
Diana Fannon
03:29
I was
inconsistent at best. I ended up taking a semester off of college because I
really I struggled i i was going there to swim I was on the swim team when I
went to Yale. And by the end of the second year, I stopped swimming and I was
just really struggling. So I took a semester off and I came home I went home to
live with my family and and just I you know, started therapy, I took
antidepressants, that kind of I was just really, really it took a toll on me.
And that made a huge difference. So I it was sort of my first stage of really
accepting and understanding. And then I went back and had a much better year
after that not swimming at the time was the right thing for me. And just it got
better and seizures were under better control because I didn’t have that extra
thing in my life with swimming. And then, you know this, it wasn’t a one step
phase. It was a first phase of acceptance. It wasn’t didn’t happen overnight.
And so there were challenges along the way. And I think that I finally was able
to achieve control of my seizures. Not really until I was 40 when I got the VNS
device so that’s a vagal nerve stimulator. And so that is something so yeah, so
that’s something that I always compare it to, like a what is that? I just lost
my words. They for heart patients. Is it
Dana Jonson
04:48
like
heart monitor or pacemaker? Yes, yes. Compared
Diana Fannon
04:54
to that,
thank you to that but for your brain. So cool. Then it has been super, super
helpful for me. And I still am on medication but a lower dose. And so it’s been
much more helpful. And the reason I finally got to the place of getting my VFS
device was I had a morning just before it was just before I turned 40 I think
so about five and a half years ago. And I was really, really tired. And I
needed to go to a meeting and I thought I was okay. I thought it was just
tired. But I got in the car pulled out of my garage, and I crashed the car. Oh,
so yeah, so luckily, it was just in the alley, and it was just me and it was
just parked cars. And it was, you know, there’s been other things that have
happened up till then. But that was the first time that had really been
something serious. That’s terrifying. Yeah, it was and, and it was the thing
that I needed to say, Oh, my God, you know, it. Was it scary that it has to be
that but I think right, everything seems so important. Right? Go go into work,
going to going to a meeting. And now it seems so silly looking back. Right.
Dana Jonson
06:03
But and
as you said, it’s probably the best way that that could have happened.
Absolutely. You know, if it had to happen to jog you then you know, at least it
was relatively safe.
Diana Fannon
06:14
But
yeah, exactly. That was that was exactly my thought. But along the way, this
has been kind of what I started out teaching. And I knew right away teaching in
a general classroom wasn’t the right fit for me. But I loved connecting with
the students. I found right away that that was kind of my my sweet spot. And so
that’s how I got into being a school psychologist. And I absolutely loved it. I
was bilingual. So I worked a lot with our English language learners and their
families. And I loved our high school students, too. So I worked a lot with the
older kids. People talked about middle school, middle school was not the right
fit for me. That would
Dana Jonson
06:54
not be
for me either. Right? Yeah. But for those whom it is it is like That’s right.
They can barely imagine working anywhere else. And they love it so much. That
was not my jam.
Diana Fannon
07:05
I agree.
You’re right. People are middle school, or middle school or middle school. Oh,
my Yeah.
Dana Jonson
07:10
All the
way. No, I was either elementary or high school. Those are my places that I
really love the students. But middle school, I can’t I had enough problems when
I was there myself. So
Diana Fannon
07:23
I wonder
if it’s like a trauma. like middle school or, or great and middle school and
those of us who can we just like,
Dana Jonson
07:31
every
now we go on. So I loved
Diana Fannon
07:35
it. And
I found that while I was working with high school students, a lot of the things
that would come up where things ended up canceling my diabetes, and were really
resistant to taking medication, they wanted to be like the other kids. And I
found that I really connected with that. Because I understood it, you know, I
understood I didn’t have a lot of it in high school, but I had it in life, you
know, you don’t have to be a high school kid to understand that you want to fit
in with everybody else. And we had quite a few kids, kids with sickle cell kids
who had to go out and get treatments kids in a school. And that that feeling of
wanting to be like everybody else not wanting to be different. And the truth
is, it doesn’t even have to be medical, it just having a disability of any
kind. And I got it, you know, I really connected with the kids. And I think
that’s part of why high school. Really, I really understood high school because
the kids were able to talk to me about it, you know, they’re able to share that
was kind of my road to you know, school psychology and how having a disability
for me really became important and significant in my journey. And then, you
know, I went on to supervise school psychologists. So I have written and read a
lot of reports. You know, analyzing them for defensibility and seeing if
they’re solid. You know, we see a lot of good ones we see a lot of not so good
ones.
Dana Jonson
08:52
Yeah, me
too.
Diana Fannon
08:54
As an
attorney, I bet you are super familiar, right? Yeah. I’m
Dana Jonson
08:58
familiar
with the concept. Yes. Did you do a lot of testing when you were when you were
the school psychologist, you did a lot of the testing is that, like all the
school psychologist does, or I’m just some China,
Diana Fannon
09:09
it is
different. I have learned. So I’ve been to different districts now. I’ve been
and it is different. So when I was a school psychologist I did. We were the
only ones who did the testing. So we did the testing. We wrote the reports, and
you know, their IEP meetings and all of that. But I also did a ton of
counseling. So I did. I did counseling for students who had it as part of their
IEPs. And then I also ran groups for anyone and everyone. So it could have been
kids who had IEPs. It could have been kids who didn’t have IEPs. And I ran
groups like anger management, social skills. I’m trying to remember what other
groups I ran. But those were just a couple of groups that I ran and a lot of
times I get referrals from the dean’s office. So I’d have partnerships kind of
with the people who worked there and really were wanting not to suspend kids so
it was kind of an off Turn it into suspension and in an informal way, right? It
wasn’t. So that’s interesting. Yeah. So we have a lot of kids in that one
school I worked in, we had, I love that,
Dana Jonson
10:09
by the
way, I absolutely love that that idea of education versus punishment. So
Diana Fannon
10:15
yeah,
and we had this one particular school, we had the African American students
were a minority. And so they were often targeted by whether whether it was
intentionally or incidentally, we would have been presumed to point that out.
But they were the students were referred at a much higher rate than their
percentage of the demographic, which suggests they should have been one of the
deans and I worked really closely together to make sure that we weren’t also
suspending them or disciplining them at a higher rate. You can’t always change
the system, but you can work within it to correct it. And so that’s, you know,
that time I’ve only been a school psychologist, I think, for three years,
maybe. And so, you know, yeah. So that’s one of the things I think I’ve learned
is that, and I say this now, realizing I should think about it more often. But
you can’t always change the system, but you can work within it to do the best
that you can, right? You can, you can implement little changes on a daily basis
to make sure the people that you’re supporting are protected, or that they’re
getting support. And that’s what we did. That’s what it is. But the problem,
the problem, and not that I want to be negative, but the problem is that if you
leave, it’s not there anymore, right? That’s the negative. And that’s why
changing the system is always the best if you can, right.
Dana Jonson
11:42
And I
see that a lot. When there’s overturn of staff of any kind, it can drastically
changed the program a child is getting, just like I mean, we’re not entitled to
ask for specific staff to work with a child. But sometimes that is the
difference between a child being successful or not. And it’s, it is
frustrating. And I do get that because I think even myself, as a parent, there
was a time where I was like, I need my kid in this building. And I need them to
have this teacher and they didn’t get either, and it was fine. Yeah, so I know
that that’s a lot to manage. But particularly for children with disabilities, I
have definitely seen when there are personality clashes, particularly if they
have a one on one, and that isn’t working out, to not switch it or to not work
within the system to make sure they get the training or that there’s some kind
of guidance, it is very difficult for me, a lot of times when the director
changes, so does their attorney. So that could drastically change everything
for me because the relationship with the attorney might change. And so yeah,
no, it really does make a difference. It
Diana Fannon
12:47
does.
And I think based on what you just said, I think one of the things we have that
happen, right, and I think as a director, and I hadn’t gotten to that part of
my role yet, but as a director, one of the things that we run into is, there
are staff who may not necessarily be maybe you didn’t hire them, or maybe you
hired them, and, and you’re working with them, right. So you say you have what
you have. And there are things that you can do. So if a parent, I’m trying to
figure out how to word this.
Dana Jonson
13:19
Very
delicate, right?
Diana Fannon
13:21
If a
parent asks you for a specific staff member, and you can’t, you have to say we
can only promise you a service, right? We can’t promise you. But there are ways
to do what you just said, Right? There are ways to say, this is what we’re
going to do, we’re going to give training. And you can also help the parent, I
often help parents with wording right. And one of the things you can do is
request in writing this, this, this or this, or meaning you want certain
training or you want a certain supports. And then what we as a district can do
is say, You know what, I think this staff member may be better suited, because
they have this training, and this this level of support, or they can provide
this level of support, because they’ve had this training already. And in the
meantime, we’ll work with that staff member and make sure they get this
training, and they’ll be better suited to work with this group of students. So
we have you know, we have discussions in the case of the one on one, like you
mentioned or any. In our district, we have one on one positions, and we have
embedded eight positions, right? So it’s all the same job description, it’s all
the same, you know, classification. So if people are hired, they can do both.
But sometimes it’s less pressure on a day when they’re working with two or
three students versus one student. And, of course, it depends on the child’s
needs. So that’s one way that we can kind of work around that. Yeah, I
Dana Jonson
14:45
like the
way you said that too. Because I remember having one of my clients way back
when they’re going into third grade, the student was going into third grade and
there were only 2/3 grade teachers at that time in the classroom. And the
parent was saying they have to have this teacher they have to have this teacher
and I said Well, you know, tell me what the difference is, right? What’s the
difference in the methodology or in the environment? or what have you, we went
in asking for, you know, stimulus free environment and whatever else it was
that we’re asking for an organization and structure and blah, blah, blah. And
after the meeting, the parents said, can I just show you the two classrooms?
And I was like, Sure, no problem. So we went into the first one, which was the
one that she wanted. And it was very organized, there was, there was enough
stuff up, so it didn’t look barren, but it wasn’t, you know, a whole bunch of
stuff. And it was it made sense. And it was organized and whatever, you just
tell that person was very structured, and we walked across the hall to the
other room, and it looked like a third grade curriculum had just thrown up in
there. It was so overstimulating that I was struggling, I’m like, I need to
leave this is too much. And she said, that’s, that’s what I’m talking about.
Now, her child would have a last ditch in that classroom. Fortunately, the
child ended up in the other classroom, I think everyone thought that would be
better for everyone else. And they just had to say that they can’t guarantee
it. But you know, to your point, identifying what the child requires versus who
they require. And doing it in writing allows you to have something to hold the
school accountable for. So if you have a child who requires a low stimulus environment,
and you put him in this classroom, that’s absolutely chaotic, and there’s no
structure and it’s a complete free for all. And the child doesn’t do well. You
can hold them accountable and say, well, we all agreed that they need this, why
are they in that classroom? Yep.
Diana Fannon
16:33
And I
think that’s it, there’s actually multiple benefits from that. Because if you
are saying what this child needs, because you don’t want him to have a certain
teacher, but the truth is, the reason you don’t want him to have that teacher
is because of what the classroom looks like, and the way it’s run, that’s gonna
pay dividends in the future as well. Because if we know that a high sensory
stimulus environment, and overload with things on the walls, or too many things
going on, that can happen in any number of places, right, because we might need
to pre load him or prepare him for going into, say it’s a, I don’t know, like a
choir or something like that, or dance or some for any kind of the specials
that are less likely to be super structured. So it kind of it will help in
general, but specifically, yes, it would help to say this classroom might not
work for him, because the teacher who was going to have that on their walls is
likely to run their classroom in a different way. Yes, right. Yeah.
Dana Jonson
17:31
And that
usually is how it works out. That’s the environment you see is usually
indicative of how everything goes,
Diana Fannon
17:39
right.
So I think that’s, that’s generally speaking, when we get requests about
people, the reason certain people work is because of the way they do things. So
another person can do things that way, we just have to figure out what those
things are. And that’s how, that’s how I like to work with parents. I’m super
transparent with parents, because I’ll say, like, I won’t say yes or no, and
I’ll tell them that, but I’ll say, tell me what it is you want. And I can get
back to you. I can review this and we can talk about it. Because anything’s
reasonable until it’s not, you know?
Dana Jonson
18:13
Yeah, so
we talked about it all. Yeah, I think that’s good. Because there are, you know,
we talked about this earlier, but Well, I’m gonna get us off track. So I wanted
to finish talking. Oh, yes. Sorry, engines in my head already. So, so
Diana Fannon
18:27
yeah. So
So I was school psychologist, and then I supervised school psychologists. And
I, that was about 12 years, I think 12 or 13 years of my career. And then I
went to informal dispute resolution took a break there for a year.
Dana Jonson
18:44
And it
was it was quite interesting.
Diana Fannon
18:48
Right,
not exactly right. But it was certainly interesting, and certainly informed by
next window. So I spent a year there working with families, and they they have
that option, instead of filing for dispute resolution, instead of filing due
process. They could opt into our IDR program. And we would, you know, try to
resolve it. And I didn’t, I don’t know somewhere in well over 100 settlement
agreements in a year. So that was, that was that was good practice for me. And
then I am now I’ve been in my role as director, which was my next step for
almost five years. So I’m in my I’m in my finish. I can’t remember. I’m
finished four years. This is my fifth year, so So almost five years, and that
included COVID That was my first year I started open hit so that was that was
fun. That was fun. Oh
Dana Jonson
19:41
my god.
I can’t even imagine. I can’t tell you how happy I did not work in a school
district when COVID hit i Anyone who had to go through that. I mean, it really
was awful for the parents too, but I cannot. I can’t even imagine it was it was
awful all around. Yeah,
Diana Fannon
20:00
it was I
was my best friend and her family were living with us at me with me at the time
because they were remodeling their house. And so I had my best friend, her
husband and their four kids. Oh my god. So I got to I got to see a little bit
of the homeschooling happened. Yeah, it was.
Dana Jonson
20:17
I had
kids in the house or foster families. We’ve six kids in the house during the
pandemic, and we have an open floor plan. It was my husband, I think like March
20. Moved, hissed in his office to the porch, and didn’t bring it back till
November. I can just get to be outside if you need me. Yeah, it was. It was
brutal. It was different.
Diana Fannon
20:38
I mean,
nobody was right. Nobody was prepared for it. Nobody could have even predicted
what this would look like. And but it was, I think that as a director, it was,
it was interesting, because I was still learning what being a director really
meant, right? Because I went from a really large district to a small district.
So things looked over look different there. So I was still figuring that out. I
was learning how to navigate labor partnerships. That’s a whole different
thing. I had never really, we had them again, I was with LA Unified previously.
Right. So that was the second largest district. So not that we don’t have labor
partnerships there. But I was never as close to them. Right? A whole different,
right. So there’s like a department. Right? So. So being in a small district, I
was learning about about that, and figuring the things out. And that, you know,
decisions, you can’t just make decisions. And so it’s been a learning curve. It
was a learning curve. And that, you know, I was hoping to have a first year
where I could learn and visit and get to know people and then make changes my
second year based on what I learned, but nope,
Dana Jonson
21:49
can
happen. Love you think about that? I mean, from your first year, if that was
COVID, it’s only gonna get easier, right? Like it has
Diana Fannon
21:59
a
problem. The problem is that what’s happened since then, is whether or not it’s
directly related to COVID. I think this is debatable, but the staffing
shortages have gotten significantly worse since then,
Dana Jonson
22:13
I think
it’s all I mean, not to go down the COVID Rabbit Hole. But I do think it’s,
it’s everything is related to that in some way. I think that the children who
returned from COVID, were not the children who went into COVID. And we have a
system that was really barely working for children to start with. And I there’s
a small part of me, it was like, Oh, I hope public education falls apart. So we
have to rebuild, it did not happen. But you know, it really is barely working
for them to start with. And now all the students, we knew they’re not the same
kids anymore. And that Fallout is gonna last for a really long time. Plus, that
push to technology that we had but weren’t using that is now everywhere, that
all together, I think made it so difficult for so many people. And there are
different reasons why I think people left because of COVID, whether it got
harder, or some people didn’t want to risk being in person, you know, whatever
it was, it doesn’t matter. But I do think there’s a lot of fallout from COVID that
will be seen for a long time. Yeah,
Diana Fannon
23:10
yeah, I
think you’re right. I think we all sort of hoped that there would be changes in
a way that was maybe positive or different, or at least just took us on a on a
new path. And I don’t know, I don’t know that that’s happened.
Dana Jonson
23:25
I
haven’t seen it. But other than I don’t have to leave my house for IEP
meetings, which has been great. I’m not gonna lie to you. That
Diana Fannon
23:32
has been
positive. I will say that I’m very positive. I think I’d be interested to hear
your take on this as well. I think that parent attendance and parent’s ability
to participate has been positively impacted by the by having meetings
virtually. I think that meeting engagement, and I think that is not as good. I
think that in person meetings are so much better than virtual meetings? I do.
Yeah,
Dana Jonson
24:01
I do.
And I think I think one for virtual IP meetings, I find them to be a little
more structured, too, because not everybody can talk at the same time. So it
sort of forces that component a little bit. I think it makes it easier for
parents to attend than off, take the day off from work, they can just take
their lunch or their break and do it. I have also found it tremendously
positive for mediations, because I don’t know how your mediations run, but ours
is you know, you’re with a mediator for 45 minutes to an hour. And then you
could have two hours that you’re just sitting around. And when I was sitting in
the Board of Education in a conference room with the parents that was not
productive for anybody. And you know, they were already on, they weren’t on
their home turf, right. And now they can be they can one they can do other
things. They can go pick up the kids when they need to they they have those
options. It just doesn’t destroy the day for them, which isn’t conducive to
coming to a settlement. You know, I agree with that. I feel it’s also easier to
get support. So advocates and attorneys, it’s easier for us to go to now that
I’m trying to go to more meetings in a day. But it’s easier. There’s a long
time where I could only go to maximum two IP meetings a day because of travel,
you know, across the state or what have you, I just couldn’t do more. And now,
it makes my schedule much more flexible. I can meet with a parent for 20
minutes, I can attend the meeting, I can do my follow up and then go to the next
without, you know, leaving my house, which is great. I mean, I work from home,
my office is virtual. So I do everything except for hearings, I do think that
when you’re in any form of litigation, being in person is better preferable.
And we’ve also haven’t had, we’ve had here, I think incidents of catching
people on their cell phones during testimony. So yeah, I wish anyone could have
seen your face right there. So they are at almost exploded. I think a lot of us
feel that in person is really the only way to do a hearing. But everything
else, I think it does make a lot more sense to do virtual. So that’s been a
huge plus. Right? I do want to get into as well, I know that you not just as a
special education director, but that you also separately coach and advocate for
parents and teach them how to advocate. So tell me about that, and how what you
do works there. Because in my world, this special education directors of the
line, I’m sitting on the other side of the table from right there on my side.
So it’s interesting that you’re taking that knowledge and information and
background and using it to actually help parents although I can tell by the way
you’re discussing how you like your role that you are very much child centered.
And that’s wonderful. I love that. So tell me more about the coaching bet?
Well,
Diana Fannon
26:42
I think
one of the things that I found is that it’s often hard to do the work within
the system, the school system, right? It’s, it’s, which is interesting, because
it shows what should be supporting the child and we should be supporting the
family. And sometimes it’s just a challenge. And I’ve been to different places,
it’s not unique, I don’t think it’s unique to any school district. Even the
best school districts, I think some are more set up for success than others.
But I think they’re all a little bit of a challenge. So I started disability at
pros, and I just started a few months ago, it’s just sort of a passion project
of mine, because I really do love working with families and supporting
students. And that really is what I want to do. So I have a couple of different
things that I’m doing. And it’s all designed to empower and educate parents and
families. So it’s not like
Dana Jonson
27:31
you’re
going into the meetings, you’re teaching the parents, advocates,
Diana Fannon
27:36
I
couldn’t, I would, but it’s not my it’s not my goal. So if somebody needs me, I
will go, right, I have the knowledge, and I have the skills, but it’s not.
That’s not where my passion lies, I want parents to I want to provide the
education and I want it to equip parents with the skills to be able to handle
the day to day and to handle the requests and to know how to ask for help and
to know how to ask for an assessment and to know how to say, you know, my child
is struggling, I need help. And not if they get to know, I want parents to be
able to say no, no, that’s not okay. You don’t get to say no to me. And I also
want I hear so much about fighting, I don’t want parents to feel like they have
to fight, I want them to feel like they can say, Here’s a letter, this is my
request, you need to honor it. And if you don’t, this is what I’m going to do
without it being a threat. Without it being a big fight. I want parents to feel
comfortable and confident knowing that there’s always recourse because there is
and parents really do they have the law on their side. And the problem is that
I think sometimes the information is hard to find, or it’s buried in legal
jargon, or it’s buried in ed code, or it’s, you know, it’s and so I want to be
able to help parents find it, and help everything be accessible. And, you know,
package a couple of easy courses for parents to take and, and have them feel
really just comfortable and confident and know that this is what I need to call
an advocate or this is what I need to call an attorney. But up until that
point, I can handle just the basics. And that’s really what I want them to be
able to do. Yeah,
Dana Jonson
29:11
I always
say if I could educate every parent so that they knew what they were doing when
they walked into their meeting. That’s really all I want is for parents to know
what they’re doing. You know, and as you said, some of it and some of it is
counterintuitive. So I think sometimes, as a lay person, you can read the
statute and not really understand what it means. So having that translation,
again, as you said, and also understanding when you need help, you know when
when to ask for help. When do you need an advocate or an attorney? And they do
different things. And it depends on where you are and different advocates do
different things and different attorneys. You know, I know some attorneys who
do only litigation. I know some attorneys who you know, we do a lot of
collaborative work in our office. That’s just where people come to us at that
point. And I go to a lot of IEP meetings. That’s not all attorneys do that. And
then there are advocates who might focus in one specific, specific disability
or one specific goal. So I think, you know, knowing when and how to ask for
help is a huge piece. But as you said, also, knowing what you need to do, do
you find that you talk to parents a lot about communication? And how to
communicate with their district? Because I do find that to be sometimes what
caused the ref? Yes, more so than services?
Diana Fannon
30:28
100%?
Because well, because you start with that communication piece is what starts at
all, or it’s what everything was good. And then something happened
communication wise, I find that the single biggest issue with communication is
usually that it wasn’t in writing. Yes, there can be mistakes and how you
communicated or what you wrote. But if it wasn’t in writing, then it just
didn’t happen. So
Dana Jonson
30:51
I say
that all the time. If it wasn’t in writing, it didn’t happen. You can tell me
until you are blue in the face. Yeah. If it wasn’t in writing, it did not
happen. Yeah.
Diana Fannon
30:58
So I
tell parents, like you may prefer a phone call, and that’s fine. But then you
have to follow up in writing, like, you can communicate however you you want
to, but then there better be an email after that. And that you have to document
that it happened. And I even had to talk to some of my staff about that
sometimes. Well, the the parents said he wanted to talk. I don’t care. Yep,
that’s lovely. Have a nice phone call, follow up with an email, because now
we’re gonna go into hearing and I have no evidence of this, right? Take
contemporaneous
Dana Jonson
31:25
notes,
right? Take contemporaneous notes, and then follow up in an email, right?
Diana Fannon
31:31
Because
I like it. Even if you just have your notes, that doesn’t help me. Right, you
better have an email. Exactly, you need to have a shared documentation of that
you need to have evidence that he knows and, you know, right, and so it is, the
writing is really the biggest thing. But more than that, to not more than that.
But similarly, I think it is really important that we’re on the same page,
right, that parents and the school district are collaborating, that the that
parents go in, because I think there’s a lot of parents who are being told that
the school district doesn’t want to give them anything that the school district
wants to fight with you. And the school district on the same side, right? Like
the school district sometimes is being told that, oh, that parent that parents
negative or that parents fighting or everyone comes in with perceptions, but I
think we have to assume that intentions, we have or presume good intentions,
actually. And we have to start from a place of working together, we have to
really try really, really hard to collaborate on everything that we’re doing.
And so what that means on the side of the school district, that means that we
are sending reports in advance, even if the parent didn’t ask for it, that
we’re sending the IEP and advance the draft IEP in advance, not the whole IEP,
draft IEP in advance, even if a parent didn’t request it. Because if we want
the parent to have meaningful participation in the IEP, then they need to see
those documents. And then that means if a parent makes a request that seems
crazy, that we have to consider it. And if it seems really, really weird, then
we need to call a parent and say, What did you mean by this? Like, what are you
looking for? Because maybe they meant something else, and they didn’t
communicate it in a way that made sense to us. So don’t always assume that
there’s something, you know, untoward going on, or there’s some, you know, some
scheme or some right, like,
Dana Jonson
33:29
yeah,
no, and I hear what you’re saying. And I think I do hear a lot from parents
sometimes, like they did all of this on purpose, and they’re targeting me. And
I’m not saying that that has not happened, because I have seen that happen, I’m
sure in house doesn’t happen as frequently as, as sometimes parents think. And
I find that it’s usually not the team working with the child that is, is the
problem. And I also find like, if the parent is frustrated, and they just
attack and go after, you know, there’s a difference between saying my child
isn’t reading and you didn’t teach my child to read, right, you’re gonna get a
different response from those different phrases. And I think, you know, looking
at the perspectives is it’s hard to have a different perspective, when you’re
the parent is a parent and not an attorney. And I the parent, sometimes don’t
make a lot of sense.
Diana Fannon
34:22
The same
thing, right? I’m a parent, and I’m kind of giving people a heads up. I haven’t
gotten to the IEP phase, but it’s coming soon. And it will likely be the same
right? And I don’t get angry, but I cry so much. I’m expecting someone’s gonna
switch gears from me. They’re gonna be like, this lady happened to her. It’s
not the same, which is why actually which is why written communication is so
helpful because I hadn’t Ranger
Dana Jonson
34:49
so
because it can also be dangerous because things can be lost, like talent, like
if you’re sarcastic or you think you’re saying something nice and it comes
across but I do agree with you that it right and communication makes sense
because it gives the other person time to review it. Think about it, if they
don’t like it calm down, right? You know, we got a call from one of my
children’s teachers the other day, and they were heightened. They were so angry
and aggressive and I’m, you know, not gonna comment on what whose fault that
was? Yeah, to get that call, you know, you kind of want to be like, Okay, why
don’t you take a breath, right? And get back to me, because No parent wants to
hear from a teacher who’s really angry at their child, it just is not gonna go
well. Now, do you talk with parents about how to put things in writing? And
what things? Yeah,
Diana Fannon
35:38
you and
I have, you know, some sample templates and things like that for like, you
know, requesting, whether it’s parent concern letter or parent, sort of, I
think revision statement is what people are calling it these days. But just,
you know, kind of what you see for your child. But the parent concerns I think,
are typically the most the most important prior to an IEP, or just in general,
I think it’s really important that that’s documented. And if it’s, if it’s
attached to the IEP, I think it’s really important that you have, because if
it’s long, oftentimes, it’s long, oftentimes you have concerns in multiple
areas, and you can attach it as a separate document. But I think it’s important
that you can let them know before the IEP if you’re ready for that, or you can
do it after the IEP, right. But I think it’s really important that you let them
know, or you let them know what you’re going to be, like, you may already know
what you’re going to be disagreeing with. Right, even if the item is not
drafted, you may know. Right? But that way you kind of front load, these are my
areas of concern.
Dana Jonson
36:38
And then
also, do you find that it’s helpful to review how to review the IEP with
parents, because I think a lot of if someone comes to you, they said, I’ve
asked for this at every single meeting for the last 10 years. And I look at it
and I say it’s not anywhere, you know that that raises the question of, okay,
this poor parent had no idea what they were looking at when they looked at this
document. So their disagreement? Yeah, yeah. So even isn’t there?
Diana Fannon
37:04
Right.
And that is, again, similar to your parent concerns, your IEP disagreement? So
yeah, so yeah, I absolutely parents need to, that’s where you understand
understanding the IEP comes into play, right, understanding the sections at the
IEP, and where you want to look, and what parents really need to know. Because
I have seen people going through, you know, the goals and the details, and that
special factors page and all of this. And listen, I think some of it’s
important, right, I think, you know, and I think I think parents need to
understand at a sort of macro level, all the details of the IEP, I think it’s
absolutely important. And you need to understand the goal is, in particular,
because you should be getting progress reports, right, you should be seeing
progress reports on that. But do I think you need to understand every single
page of the IEP to with a level of detail that and I like a case manager, an
IEP teacher would sorry, IEP teacher, special ed teacher, what apparently I’m
having trouble with words today. But I know I actually don’t, I think you need
to understand enough as a parent to be able to read it and not feel like it’s
in a totally different language. Yeah. But I do think based like what you just
mentioned, understanding the goal, because you get progress reports and
understanding it notes in the places where the parents input should be, so that
you can check where your input should have been.
Dana Jonson
38:27
Yes. And
present levels of performance, I think, because depending on your format,
sometimes that can be hard. But we just got a new format in Connecticut, which
is actually difficult, frustrating and difficult, because we all just got used
to the last form. But it does have the levels of performance with the goal that
it belongs to. So I think that makes it easier for
Diana Fannon
38:49
some of
our districts in California, not not where I am. But some of our districts.
Dana Jonson
38:55
It just
made it easier to not skip over, you know, and that and that way, I think it’s
it is good. I mean, there are a lot of positive changes to the new form. It’s
just as with any new change like that, there’s lots of tweaks that have to be
made. Yeah,
Diana Fannon
39:06
I go
through all of that with parents. But I think what you really want, I think, I
think present levels because they’re based on the assessment. And because you
go from assessment to present levels, to goals, to services, to accommodations,
and placement and all of that, right. That’s how it all kind of feeds together.
But there are a million pages in the IEP that aren’t what I just rattled up,
right? figuring out what’s important, but I think but what you’ve said it’s
really, really critical that parents now if I give input, where does it go?
Where will I find my voice in this IEP and biggest, you know, parent input
statement or parent concerns, and that goes in different places in every IEP,
if there is a place on every IEP for parent concerns. Yeah, it’s just different
on every, every state. And so you have to find the place in the IEP where they
put that, but you can always ask for your state Men are document to be uploaded
to the IEP yet, so you’re not limited to whatever space they have. So
Dana Jonson
40:06
space is
like three sentences, like, read with everything, or a parent disagreed with
everything. And that’s it.
Diana Fannon
40:12
That’s
your concerns and like, that’s a good one
Dana Jonson
40:15
they
shared there
Diana Fannon
40:18
they
are, right, it can also be the notes page. So you have a couple of options to
where that could be. And then when you disagree with the IEP, you don’t have to
check the boxes, you can also upload a document there. And so there are a
couple of different ways. So I do go through that with parents, and I tend to
walk them through their options and let them choose, I don’t want parents to do
something that I tell them to do. You know, I walked them through the benefits
of all the different ways you can do it. And because I sometimes I use having a
document attached, you know, up sometimes are the risks to that. Yeah, it
should be included, every time a records request is made, and it should be
reviewed by everybody. But you never know, I we’re all human school districts
are human people with busy schedules. And I would like to say that they’ll
review everything, but I can’t make 100% guarantee. So if it’s part of the IEP,
there is a much better chance now with a disagreement. I don’t worry about
that. Because if we, if you disagree with an IEP, and that’s on the signature
page, then they’re gonna see it. But with parent concerns, there’s some
different ways to share that. So. So yeah, so I walked them through all the
sort of pros and cons of each option.
Dana Jonson
41:25
Yeah,
that’s great. No, and I agree with you. And I think, like, for example, we
don’t have to sign the IEP, right, you know, just in general. So every, I
wouldn’t say every district, but some districts will say different things to
parents. So the message that comes across is is different. Right. But I think
as you said, understanding where your concerns go, understanding where your
disagreements go, and understanding what your child is receiving, those are
really the most important things and how you’re going to be updated, which is
the progress reports and, and paying attention to them, you know, not just the
ladder, but you know, what, what are they actually doing? Well, this is a
really, really helpful is, are there any other thoughts that you have that you
want to share with parents? I think we’ve covered so much of advocacy, I think
it’s great.
Diana Fannon
42:11
I know,
this has been super fun. No, I think the biggest thing is just making sure that
parents are not afraid to use their voice. As the parent, you are in charge of
your child’s education. And I know for some parents, I’ve seen it, and parents
have told me that it can be scary sometimes to go in, right, you’re one parent.
And oftentimes, like at an IEP meeting, there’s 10 or 12, people who are school
staff members, and some parents don’t feel comfortable. And my best
recommendation is to find one person, at least that you feel comfortable with
in the school, usually, there’s at least one staff member who was kind of a,
you know, a willing ear and find that person and talk to them, or at least kind
of stick with them. But you are your child’s voice until they have their own or
if they have their own. And so so just you know, find someone to support you if
you know, but I
Dana Jonson
43:02
always
say no one’s going to advocate for your child better than you are, and no one’s
going to step in and just take it over for you. So you have to learn. And the
more you do understand it, the less intimidating I think it becomes Yes,
because as a rule, you aren’t going to be in a minority at the table. You just
are just just based on the numbers. And one thing we talked about before we
started was having somebody else with you. Yeah, having another set of ears or
another set of eyes, doesn’t mean you have to go hire an advocate for every IEP
meeting. If you can, I would recommend it. Because just having somebody else to
help you keep things organized, know what you’re doing, know what you need to
do. And making sure it happens correctly. Is is priceless. But even if not as
you were saying something about, you know, just you have a friend who can come
and be another set of eyes and ears and say to you afterwards like that didn’t
make sense. I don’t know what you’re, you know, in agreement with or, you know,
either advocating with you or asking questions that you don’t think to ask
having another set because we aren’t we aren’t as parents, I think it is
impossible to be objective. 100% Yeah, I don’t think I don’t think it’s a
thing. No,
Diana Fannon
44:14
no,
there’s no objectivity when it comes to your kid. And honestly, sometimes I
found in my friends tell me that sometimes I am in the other way. Like
sometimes I’m not. I’m not negative, but I’m like two, I think he can’t do it
as much as he can. So I think it’s because of my background, right? Like, I’m
like, well, he’s not great at that. She’s like, What are you talking about? He
can do this, this and this. And so it comes in both ways, depending on your
view, but you don’t have an African
Dana Jonson
44:42
at the
negative because that’s what gets the support, right. So your brain goes
straight to negative. And that’s just a I think that’s just an occupational
hazard.
Diana Fannon
44:53
100% And
so, but either way, you’re emotional and you’re not you’re not objective. So I
would agree with that. You definitely need You’ve definitely depend on IP alone
as we were discussing about phone a friend, exactly
Dana Jonson
45:06
phone, a
friend on an advocate. And so when somebody’s listening to this, and they say,
Well, I have to talk to Diana fan and because she’s just so I have to talk to
she gets, I have to, how do they reach you? Oh,
Diana Fannon
45:18
my
website is disability Ed proz.com. And I have a free webinar coming up. So you
can go to disability and proz.com backslash webinar, and that’s on demystifying
the path to eligibility. So we’ll talk about assessments, we’ll talk about the
eligibility process, and that’s coming up at the end of January and a couple
dates. And then you can also find me on Instagram at disability and post.
Dana Jonson
45:43
Excellent
and all that information will be in my show notes. So if you’re driving right
now or going for a run, just go back and look at the show notes, and I will
have that information there. Dan, thank you so much. I know this will be very
helpful for parents and I love getting this from a sped director as well. I
think it helps a firm I think what parents need to do when both sides are
saying the same thing, right? Yeah. Excellent. Thank you so much. Thank you.
Thank you so much for joining me today. Please don’t forget to follow this
podcast so you don’t miss any new episodes and leave a review and you have a
chance. If there’s anything you want to hear about or comment on. Please go to
my Facebook page special ed on special ed and find me there. I’ll see you next
time here on special ed on special ed, have a fabulous day. The views expressed
in this episode or those of the speakers at the time of the recording do not
necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any other agency
organization, employer or company or even that individual today.
