Dana Jonson [00:00:09]:
Hello and welcome back to special Ed. On Special Ed, I am your host, Dana Johnson, and today my guest is Dr. Allison Escalante, who is a board certified pediatrician with a remarkable career spanning over two decades. Allison, thank you so much for being here.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:00:25]:
Thank you.

Dana Jonson [00:00:26]:
Of course, I’m going to give a little intro to Dr. Escalante. She’s known for her innovative approach to parenting and child development. She’s dedicated the last 10 years to exploring methods that empower parents to meet their children’s needs. Dr. Escalante is the author of an upcoming book, Sigh. See Start, which introduces a science based, three step method to overcoming the parenting should storm, which is basically a culture of criticism and anxiety that robs parents of any joy. Her work, which reflects her passion for neurodiversity and special needs, focuses on helping parents connect deeply with their children as they are beyond the pressure of societal expectations.

Dana Jonson [00:01:08]:
In our conversation today, we’ll explore her approach to parenting and delve into how parents can foster a supportive and understanding environment for their children, especially those with neurodiverse traits. So we will get started with that in just a second, but as usual, I need to play my disclaimer first.

Melody Murray [00:01:26]:
The information in this podcast is provided for general informational and entertainment purposes only and may not reflect the current law in your jurisdiction at the time you’re listening. Nothing in this episode creates an attorney client relationship, nor is it legal advice. Do not act or refrain from acting on the basis of any information included in or accessible through this episode without seeking appropriate legal or other professional advice on particular facts and circumstances at issue from a lawyer or service provider license in your state, country, or other appropriate licensing jurisdiction.

Dana Jonson [00:01:47]:
So, hello Dr. Escalante. Thank you so much for joining me today.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:01:51]:
Oh, it’s wonderful to be here.

Dana Jonson [00:01:52]:
I am so excited for this conversation. I would like to start with a background on you. What’s your background? What brought you to where you are today and who you are today? And we’ll go from there.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:02:04]:
Oh, wow. That’s a long story.

Dana Jonson [00:02:07]:
Well, let’s abbreviate it maybe, but the Reader’s Digest version.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:02:11]:
The Reader’s Digest version. Well, one of the things that I think before I was in medicine that is probably important is when I was in college, I had the opportunity to kind of dive into a pretty specific major. And so I did intellectual and cultural history, focusing on the Renaissance, and my minor was in something called cultural interpretation. So that’s the kind of thing you can do at Princeton.

Dana Jonson [00:02:36]:
And so that’s amazing.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:02:38]:
But what it did Was it really? It just was so inspiring to watch how ideas move through cultures and change history, and that’s what that was all about. And so I came into medicine with that framework.

Dana Jonson [00:02:53]:
That’s a fascinating background for. For going into medicine. I would think it gives you, like, a complete perspective. That’s just fascinating to me. I want to go back to college now.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:03:03]:
Oh. I mean, it was. It was a great thing to study, and I think it. It did a lot of things. It allowed me to ask questions about why we did things the way we did in medicine. I did a lot of looking at the history of medicine and, like, well, how do we get here? And I think that’s important because those histories are often reasons why certain groups are relatively neglected or even have incorrect beliefs about them. And that’s been a huge factor for the neurodiverse community.

Dana Jonson [00:03:29]:
Yes.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:03:30]:
But it also really affected my approach to medicine. And I had a mentor, even while I was in med school, bring that up to me. He said, you approach the way you understand a patient differently, and I think it’s because you majored in history, you know.

Dana Jonson [00:03:45]:
Yeah.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:03:45]:
So I always wanted to understand where things started, the factors that came together, and get to know my patients outside of just a single, hey, I’m here with this thing today. And so that’s kind of where I came from when I eventually started thinking about what was going on with parenting.

Dana Jonson [00:04:03]:
That’s fabulous. So, yeah, I would imagine that’s a very interesting way to approach medicine. It sounds to me very intuitive, like it should be that way, but you’re right. It’s not typically that way. And speaking of medicine, I know that you have Long Covid, correct?

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:04:20]:
That’s right. Yeah. I’ve. I’ve been sick with that for two years. Pretty. Pretty severely ill, actually. Wow.

Dana Jonson [00:04:27]:
I don’t want to get too much into the details of it, but I do want to understand, like, can you explain what Long Covid is and what those ramifications are?

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:04:35]:
Yeah. And I think that’s really important for the neurodiverse community as well, because neurodiversity is a known risk factor for developing Long Covid, and I didn’t realize that. Yeah. And Long Covid also will make some of the things that are hard for neurodiverse people, it’ll make those symptoms harder, like concentration, executive function, sensory sensitivities. But as I explained it to someone I was talking with last week, Long Covid is when you get Covid, and then you don’t get better or.

Dana Jonson [00:05:07]:
Okay.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:05:08]:
Some people have A mild case of COVID And then six weeks later, they notice a whole bunch of symptoms. And so, you know, most people think of it as just fatigue, as being really tired, but it’s a lot more than that. And depending on how severe a case you have of it, and I have a very severe case, it can be pretty disabling. So bottom line is, we don’t entirely understand it, but there’s something going on where the virus dysregulates the whole immune system and your energy production system. So, for example, a recent study came out in Nature where they found that not only do people with long Covid have a hard time exercising, like our metabolism in an exercise test is much lower than other people’s. We can’t exercise as well. But then there’s muscle damage from exercising, measurable muscle damage, and the metabolism gets even worse. And we think something like that is going on in the brain too.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:06:11]:
So if I overdo it, about two days later, I will crash and I will have severe neurological symptoms. I’ll end up bedridden. I may end up with something that looks like a stomach virus. I won’t get into the details. And so my whole life is now about managing my energy and pacing. And something as simple as an overloading sensory environment can actually make me crash too, because I think it’s just too much work for my brain. Yeah. So like this, I tend to be able to do maybe one thing a day or one thing every two days.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:06:45]:
And so this is my special thing I’m doing today. And then I’ll probably nap for three hours this afternoon. Do it to recover. Well, I have to do it every day.

Dana Jonson [00:06:53]:
I’m honored you chose. This is one of your things. So thank you.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:06:56]:
Well, thank you.

Dana Jonson [00:06:57]:
I do want to talk about your book, but I. Let’s. Let’s talk a little bit about neurodiversity first, because I think it’s important to understand what that is and what it actually means, because I think I hear people say neurodiverse a lot, and I’m not sure there’s a clear. I’m not sure they necessarily understand it. It’s just sort of like, oh, I’m neurodiverse, or I have this neurodiverse issue, but not with not a full understanding of what that is and how it actually impacts them. So can you give me some background on neurodiversity? And actually, as you know, our position on it in general as a society has changed over time.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:07:37]:
That’s right before we were using the term neurodiverse. We were using the term neuroatypical, and I think that term is fine. I actually like it because I’ve always thought being atypical and unusual is interesting and fun. Agreed. But I bring that up because that term was initially applied specifically. Specifically to folks with autism, and then it started to be more broadly applied. So some folks in the autistic community will use neurodiverse specifically to mean autism. That is not how I use the term.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:08:11]:
I use it the way most developmentally focused doctors use it, which is to look at a broader range of situations in the brain that make you think very differently from the general public or the neurotypical brain, as we would say.

Dana Jonson [00:08:29]:
Okay, like how so? Like, is it very individualized as to how it impacts you, or is it something where there are some general broad strokes?

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:08:37]:
There are definitely some general broad strokes. And I think there’s a few main conditions that. That really qualify as neurodiverse. Right. One is certainly autism anywhere on the spectrum. The other is adhd. And ADHD actually has. Some people have some features that overlap, like the autistic community and the ADHD community.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:08:59]:
And a lot of folks with autism have adhd. So it’s, you know, that’s an overlap.

Dana Jonson [00:09:03]:
No, there are a ton of similarities. And it.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:09:05]:
Oh, yeah.

Dana Jonson [00:09:05]:
Like, with the sensory stuff and some of the rigidity and all of that. It’s fascinating to me also, dyslexia.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:09:13]:
So folks with dyslexia have a different way of processing information. It’s a lot more than just trouble with reading or trouble with writing. And in a second, I’ll explain how those differences can show up, because there is some unifying stuff among neurodiversity. But one group people forget about is gifted intelligence. So technically, gifted intelligence is a group of neurodiversity. And many school districts consider it part of special education. And that’s because gifted learners. It’s not just iq, the way they process information is different from.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:09:48]:
It’s not just faster. It’s a different approach to the information than the neurotypical brain.

Dana Jonson [00:09:54]:
Yeah. And it’s interesting you say that because it is technically special education, but they don’t have the mandate to provide services that they would if you had a disability. And I find that a lot. The comorbidity with. I guess that’s the right term, right? Is that the right term? Yes, comorbidity with a lot of my students, because they may have something like dyslexia. I have dyslexia, actually. Dyslexia or ADHD that is impacting their education. But then they also have this gifted component, and unless they are challenged, we can’t help them.

Dana Jonson [00:10:28]:
You know what I’m saying? And so we have to incorporate the fact that they are so gifted along with the disability. But it’s hard because as I’ve learned recently, for children who are quite bright or gifted, they don’t learn all the learning strategies, apparently, that the other kids are learning at the younger ages. And I didn’t realize this, but it makes perfect sense. So that’s why they have that performance cliff, you know, where it’s either high school or college or somewhere where they stop performing, which I’m totally getting sidetracked with. But I just. I find that really interesting because you said the special education piece. So a lot of kids, though, they get the diagnosis, yes, they’re gifted and that little IEPs written and put in a drawer and no one deals with it later. But.

Dana Jonson [00:11:11]:
So I’m glad you brought it up.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:11:13]:
Sorry to tell you, I don’t think that’s a. I mean, I don’t think that’s a tangent at all. I think the two E or the twice exceptional learning community is. It’s a huge challenge. Right?

Dana Jonson [00:11:22]:
Yeah.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:11:23]:
And we don’t even have a term for the kids I know who have ADHD plus gifted learning plus dyslexia. That’s a thrice exceptional person. Right.

Dana Jonson [00:11:32]:
You know, exactly.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:11:33]:
I mean, that’s what Scise Start is all about. It’s about individualizing the way we approach our kids instead of letting our. Our culture tell us there’s. There’s one way to do this or there’s a certain specific goal for a kid with dyslexia that you need to meet this goal. Right.

Dana Jonson [00:11:50]:
Well.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:11:50]:
Well, no, may. Maybe you don’t. Maybe that’s not right for that kid. Let’s. Let’s get to really know this child and how this kid works, you know.

Dana Jonson [00:11:59]:
Or how to do it. Right.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:12:00]:
So.

Dana Jonson [00:12:00]:
So, like, if I think the example we were talking about before was, you know, that a child has to use an agenda book to get something done. Maybe that doesn’t work for that child. Maybe the agenda book itself is the problem, not the completion of whatever the task is. So, like, making very rigid decisions on how a child’s going to execute these goals and objectives can really hinder the child’s progress.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:12:28]:
So one example is one of my sons. You know, the agenda book was such a disaster. Right. All those years where they were required to use it, and it became like a second task. Right. Instead of it being a tool to help him complete tasks, it was a different task that was out of his approach. Right. And then one day he showed me something he had come up with because unfortunately, my kids are all on Chromebooks at their school.

Dana Jonson [00:12:54]:
School.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:12:54]:
And, you know. Yes.

Dana Jonson [00:12:55]:
Familiar with the concept.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:12:57]:
And so. But what he had, he’s like. Because I was just checking in with him, like, you know, do you have an approach? How are you keeping up with things? And he’s like, mom, I just. What? This is what I do. I just have a Google Chrome document open, and I keep it open on my desktop all the time. And then in the class, when my teacher says an assignment, I just write it in there. And then when I’ve done it, I cross it. I, like, delete it.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:13:21]:
And then that’s how he does it. It’s just an. I mean, it’s really an agenda book. But he put it in line with his workflow in a way that worked for him. Right, right. And that’s an example of a kid figuring it out himself. But, like, it’s what we’re talking about, you know, that it has to be what works for this kid with their workflow, you know?

Dana Jonson [00:13:41]:
Right. Yes. And I think we sometimes miss that part. The I and iep, the individualized. And we, not we, but we as a society tend to expect children to do things in a certain way. And if, as you said, if they’re not doing it in that certain way, then we’re going to teach them how to use it. Why are we adding a new task? Right. Like, why are we putting more on them, more on the parents, more on everyone? So I totally get that.

Dana Jonson [00:14:12]:
So can you tell me a little bit about. Or actually, you know, what I want to talk about is the. Well, we are talking about the societal pressures and expectations on parenting, the neurodiverse. What do you see as some of those big barriers? I mean, we’ve talked a little bit about how expectations be a certain way. I would imagine it would be how you parent. What would be an example of something that a parent of a neurodiverse child might do that no one else would or that someone else would think was weird?

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:14:40]:
Well, I think it starts because that.

Dana Jonson [00:14:41]:
Is what they’d say, that that’s weird or wrong.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:14:43]:
Right, right. And I think that starts very young. And for a lot of parents, especially if a child is somewhere in the spectrum of neurodiversity, where it’s. There are some more severely affected people where we pick them up when they’re 15, 18 months old.

Dana Jonson [00:15:00]:
Right.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:15:01]:
So a lot of people don’t get diagnosed until well into grade school, for instance. So the classic age in my practice of ADHD diagnosis was first grade, when all of the sudden the work got more real, and then we were doing the work up on it. Right. And so because of that, you have parents facing interesting behavioral challenges when the kids are really little without a diagnosis, without somebody saying, you know, you’re. You’re struggling with this because it’s hard, and your child has their own unique needs, like. So one of the things that I find really unifies all the types of neurodiversity that I mentioned is sensory sensitivity. And with sensory sensitivity comes emotional sensitivity. Yes, in one example, and we really see this in all of them.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:15:56]:
But in adhd, for instance, people think of it as attention dysregulation or difficulty regulating attention, but it’s actually emotions, too, right?

Dana Jonson [00:16:06]:
Yes.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:16:06]:
But we see that same kind of intense emotional reactions in kids with autism and kids who are gifted and kids with dyslexia in many cases as well. And so what you’ve got is so an example. Right. Oh, my gosh. This is one of my favorite families, and I’m allowed to share this story. It’s actually in the book. But, you know, her little guy would get overstimulated in the grocery store, and her partner was working, you know, crazy shifts, and she didn’t have somewhere he could be when she went grocery shopping, she needed to bring him to the grocery store, and he would have what initially she didn’t know were neurodiverse meltdowns, as I like to call them, or sensory overstimulation meltdowns. And so he’d be basically tantruming in the grocery store, you know, and she would get the looks.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:17:03]:
And I mean, this can happen to any parent with a young child, but it happens so much more often and almost predictably for parents of kids with sensory sensitivities. Right. And so she just got in the habit of either, you know, ignoring people and getting through or leaving the cart and going out to the car. And sometimes she didn’t even get to bring the groceries home, and other times she’d go back in and recollect them later. But, you know, and I think it’s incredibly hard if you’re a parent that you don’t know that this is what’s happening. She had. She fortunately had a clue because her spouse had adhd. So she thought, well, maybe something’s going on, like what my spouse has with his adhd.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:17:49]:
But I’ve worked with lots of parents who have no idea what’s going on and they feel like they are very bad parents. And they’ll have people in public say to them, control your child. Right.

Dana Jonson [00:17:59]:
That’s astounding to me.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:18:00]:
Or so often with neurodiverse kids, these things run genetically. And so one of the parents is neurodiverse or sensory sensitive. So now the parent is struggling with their own meltdown because the kid’s melting down and overstimulating them.

Dana Jonson [00:18:18]:
Right.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:18:18]:
So sometimes parents can, you know, maybe yell a little bit and they didn’t mean to, but, you know, that’s the situation. And then they get the public censor. Right. How could you be a terrible parent who yells at your kids? Right.

Dana Jonson [00:18:32]:
You know, I love that one. I do love that one because I’m like, you’re going to tell me you’ve never yelled at your kids? You’ve never been. I don’t think you have children if you’ve never spoken inappropriately to them. Like, I don’t even know that that’s a thing. But I do remember that. I mean, I, you know, with the sensory overload, some of my kids have that as well. And there were just certain places I remember showing up at the grocery store and a friend of mine, I ran into them and they’re like, oh, you. You have the kids with you.

Dana Jonson [00:18:59]:
I would never go to the grocery store without them. Like, if I never went to the grocery store without my children, we wouldn’t eat because I don’t have somewhere else to put them, you know, so sometimes it’s not an option.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:19:10]:
Right. And, like, that’s great advice. If you have the privilege and the resources to have someone who can keep your kids. Right.

Dana Jonson [00:19:17]:
I did do your grocery shopping or.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:19:19]:
Do your grocery shopping, but most of the population doesn’t have that privilege, you know, or those resources. And like, we. We just. We have to have compassion on each other, you know?

Dana Jonson [00:19:33]:
Yes. And that is lacking because I think it’s very easy to judge a parent right in that snippet. Like, I wouldn’t do that or my kid. And it’s not true. Like, we’ve all. I just don’t believe that no parent has ever spoken out of line to their children or harshly or what have you. And I think we’ve all experienced it. But when we’re in that moment, we’re conditioned to figure out how we’re better than somebody else.

Dana Jonson [00:19:59]:
Right. Like, I think that’s just a thing in our brains, in our society, and there’s no, how can I help? You know, how. Is there something I can do or give them some space? That is sad to me. Although I will say I do struggle on airplanes when there’s a kid screaming, even though I’ve had lots of kids on airplanes. I don’t know why that just, that’s something I struggle with. But I know it’s not their fault, you know, I know it’s not their fault. And if you have a kid who’s neurodiverse and you’re now in that high pressure up in the air, talk about sensory overload, right?

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:20:30]:
And so I think that’s something you can see from both sides. I mean, I find it horrifying that airlines will actually kick people off the plane for a crying child.

Dana Jonson [00:20:39]:
Yeah.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:20:40]:
But I also find it, it’s really hard on me if I have a kid near me on the plane who’s screaming or who’s kicking my seat. Right. And so, but I know I get sensory overload, so I bring my really great noise canceling headphones and I do my, my breathing, you know, and, but, oh God, the kids, when the kids are kicking, that is so hard.

Dana Jonson [00:21:04]:
That’s actually worse than the crying. Kicking is worse than the crying.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:21:08]:
And that one’s hard not to judge because I, when, when, when my kids were on a plane, we stopped them from kicking, right? We, we worked really hard to make sure they were not kicking the seat. So it is, it is hard not to judge the parent behind you who is not stopping their child from kicking.

Dana Jonson [00:21:22]:
Right.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:21:23]:
On the other hand, like, maybe that’s how that kid stops screaming. So, you know, it’s.

Dana Jonson [00:21:28]:
Yeah, you got to think of it that this could be worse. How could this be worse? The kid could be screaming. Although I think the kicking’s a little worse than the screaming. But yeah, you know, maybe they know that if they reprimand them that they’re going to get a meltdown. Like, you know.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:21:41]:
Well, and I mean, to be honest, when I thinking back to times, like, because here I’m being all judgy, right. But thinking back to times when we had kids on the plane, like we stopped them from kicking, but yeah, then they made more noise, right. So it’s like.

Dana Jonson [00:21:55]:
Right. Well, you know, what the thing was for me was that I didn’t, I wasn’t starting new rules or anything like that on a trip, like if we’re in confined areas or around long, you know, groups of people. I was on a plane once, a total side work. But we’re on the plane and across the aisle was a little girl about the same age as my daughter, so probably like nine months. Six or nine months. And the child started screaming. And the grandmother who was sitting there said, well, I’m going to give her her pacifier. And the mother said, we’re trying to break that habit right now, so I don’t want to give it to her.

Dana Jonson [00:22:27]:
And I reached across the aisle and I tapped her on the shoulder and I said, if you don’t give her the pacifier, I will. I was just like, this is not the time to try to break the habit of the pacifier, please.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:22:39]:
Yeah, I hear that one.

Dana Jonson [00:22:40]:
Yeah. So I mean, I think it’s more on the, like if you don’t feel like the parents are doing something. But I think that’s where neurodivergent parents have a harder time because to us, we’ll think, well, reprimanding them right now would make sense. Maybe for that neurodiverse child, it would escalate things. Right, so exactly. It’s not true.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:22:59]:
If the child’s starting to get overstimulated, the parent may know very well the signs of that. And a reprimand is going to be sticking. Overstimulating, and it’s going to push them into meltdown. Right. So that’s the perception a lot of parents of neurodiverse children face, is that they’re, they’re permissive, that they’re not. They’re just letting the kid be spoiled and put up with anything. Well, no, they’re managing a different type of nervous system. And, you know, there’s a time and a place to do the, the learning, but it’s not when the kid’s overheated, you know?

Dana Jonson [00:23:34]:
Right. That’s not the moment to dive in and add more to the pile. So let’s talk a little bit about psy C Start. What is it? How did that come to be?

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:23:45]:
So basically amidst all of this, number one, there’s a general culture of anxiety in parenting. And with neurodiverse families, I think it’s just so much more heightened because our culture tells parents what they shouldn’t and should not do, that if they don’t do this, they’re going to mess up their kids for life. You should do this, you should do that, you should never do that other thing. And so I call that the should storm because it’s a storm of this shoulds, of this pressure that’s really overstimulating and anxiety producing for all parents. And it gives these impossible and often conflicting goals for what you should be achieving with your kids. And then how much more so for neurodiverse families, where now the standards for those families can be even harder to meet, both in general and sometimes in the neurodiverse community, you’ve got parents jumping in with, well, you should do this therapy. You should do that. You should try this.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:24:46]:
You should try that. Right. And in an effort to help, but it’s overwhelming. And so that drives a lot of parenting anxiety. Then I was looking for a book to really help parents, you know, in. In that. And I found some really lousy parenting advice out there, and I found some really good stuff. But a lot of the good stuff was too complicated for me.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:25:10]:
Like, I couldn’t. If I couldn’t remember it in the moment with my kids, then, you know, in my busy life, then it wasn’t. It wasn’t working for me. Right.

Dana Jonson [00:25:19]:
Right.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:25:20]:
I didn’t have an hour to sit down and apply the five steps that I read in that really great book. Right. So eventually I realized I’m not going to find what I’m looking for. I need to develop something. And that’s where psy C. Start came from. So, you know, we were taught that if your clothes light on fire, you’re supposed to stop, drop, and roll.

Dana Jonson [00:25:42]:
Yes.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:25:43]:
And we all remember that. That’s easy to remember.

Dana Jonson [00:25:45]:
We all remember that. Stop, drop, and roll. Yeah.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:25:47]:
So when your nervous system’s on fire as a parent, or when you feel a should, or you feel unsure, or you feel anxious, you sigh. See? And start. And I love this method because it’s just like we talked about before. It’s gotta be in line with your workflow. Right.

Dana Jonson [00:26:03]:
Right.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:26:03]:
Um, this is. As a parenting method, it’s. That’s it. You’re. You’re staying right in the middle of where you are, but you’re using this method, and it can be used in 10 seconds or 2 seconds, or it can be used in a more deliberate way, you know, to think about your kids and plan as a parent. Other times, I love that because it’s.

Dana Jonson [00:26:24]:
Telling the parent directly what to do when you’re in those situations and you’re like, which One of the 10,000 strategies do I apply to this moment? And how many steps does it have? That’s a lot to try and figure out. So I love that. That, you know, you’re taking a breath, you’re slowing down, you’re slowing yourself down. Right. By taking a sigh. And then c. You’re looking. Take the time to observe the situation, because sometimes it’s not always exactly as we see it.

Dana Jonson [00:26:52]:
You know, not that first glimmer. You don’t realize what’s going on. So to take a moment and see it and really observe what’s happening and what your child’s emotional state is and then start responding. And so how do you respond then?

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:27:08]:
So I love the way you, you kind of describe that there because you, you, you gave two examples. Right. One is the way we normally approach it. We run through our said head and we say, which should. Should I apply here?

Dana Jonson [00:27:19]:
Right.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:27:20]:
Which should. And then we jump right into trying to fix it. Right.

Dana Jonson [00:27:24]:
Action.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:27:24]:
And what we’re not. So what are, who are we responding to then? We’re responding to the should storm. We are not. Or we’re reacting to the should storm. We’re not responding to our kids. Right. And so with psy start, it’s a lot of people see psi as. Oh, it’s like a pause.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:27:42]:
Right. Like I’m. Yeah, I’ve heard that in other. But it’s, it’s not, it’s more than that because sigh is a quick neurological breathing technique to calm your nervous system. So it actually helps with the overstimulation. Okay. When we get overstimulated, we go into the fight or flight response or anxiety.

Dana Jonson [00:28:07]:
Right, Right.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:28:08]:
And when we’re in fight or flight, we actually shut down the prefrontal cortex, the part of our brain that helps us make wise decisions.

Dana Jonson [00:28:19]:
Not a part you wanna shut down.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:28:20]:
Not a part you wanna shut down. As a parent. Right. And so sigh, the long slow out breath stimulates the vagus nerve. It tells our nervous system, you are si. Safe. It is okay to calm down and connect. And that actually helps turn back on that part of our brain that makes wise decisions.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:28:40]:
The critical thinking part. Now when I’m really overwrought, I find that I need to sigh three times in a row. Now, just once isn’t enough. But what I love about sigh as well is that parents tell me, oh, I get that, doc. Like I sigh at my kids all the time anyway. Right, Right. So it’s already in our workflow.

Dana Jonson [00:29:01]:
Right. I agree. You, I have to do. I do the three to calm myself down sometimes. It’s just when I’m in the middle of target by myself because it’s so stimulating. But to take that, those breaths really, really do actually calm you down if you do it right. So that’s, that’s, I love that that’s part of it.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:29:22]:
I mean, let’s do it with our listeners right now, like, and just feel like you can feel your heart rate going down, your shoulders relaxing, and it feels good, you know? And what I love is it brings you back into your own body as well. And that’s important, too, because what our kids need most from us is not selecting the right should, right? It’s our presence.

Dana Jonson [00:29:46]:
Right.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:29:47]:
In fact, a lot of times when our kids act up, it’s because they’re trying to get our presence. They’re trying to get our full attention.

Dana Jonson [00:29:52]:
Right?

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:29:54]:
And that’s what we give them with C, then we give them the full attention. See is a very momentary mindfulness method, so you don’t have to meditate for 30 minutes. You just see what’s going on. And I do not mean see necessarily vision for our visually impaired folks. I mean noticing. I mean observing. I just picked the word because, you know, three S’s is easier to remember. Right.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:30:18]:
But noticing without doing noticing without immediately deciding what needs to change, just noticing. That’s what mindfulness is.

Dana Jonson [00:30:27]:
It’s.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:30:28]:
It’s noticing a situation with acceptance. So you just accept, yeah, this is the way things are right now.

Dana Jonson [00:30:34]:
Right.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:30:35]:
And then, and only then, do you start. And then with start, what you’re going to do is you’re going to process the information you’ve gathered, right? Start thinking about what might be an appropriate response to what I just noticed. Right. Maybe you. You’re gonna use some of that good parenting advice you found, but you’re going to hopefully apply it more wisely and more appropriately. One of my favorite ways to start is to do nothing, especially when we’re talking about moments where everybody’s overheated. Sometimes what my kids, for me, is quiet because I am prone to the too much talking mistake where I overstimulate my children by talking too much.

Dana Jonson [00:31:14]:
So, oh, yeah, that’s my jam.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:31:16]:
Oh, yeah. And it’s very common. The latest parenting methods really emphasize over talking and so and over explaining. And that’s highly irritating to a child who’s heated up. Right? And so. And you know what I love about start is it’s not just about, like, number one, this method helps you with any other technique you’re using. So let’s say you got some great ideas from your OT to work with your child, right? Your occupational therapist. Well, you’re going to apply those better if you use psi, C and Start as you apply them.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:31:50]:
The other thing is, this is where it’s really different from other parenting methods, because with Start, we’re running an experiment. So instead of following our society’s pressure to get it exactly right, the first time. Because we’re supposed to know.

Dana Jonson [00:32:05]:
Right? Exactly. We’re pros from the beginning. Right. It’s intuitive.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:32:09]:
And somehow it’s very unclear of what exactly right is. But we’re going to get it right. Right.

Dana Jonson [00:32:13]:
We’re going to get it right. Yep. Regardless.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:32:16]:
Instead, we’re going to start learning together with our kid. Right. So I might start something, and that something might work. Might. It might work in that situation. That’s great. I’m going to file that away as something I’ve learned. Right.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:32:30]:
That builds my sense of skills, builds my sense of confidence in my abilities as a parent. That’s fantastic. Maybe I start something and it doesn’t work. Maybe it backfires horrendously.

Dana Jonson [00:32:43]:
I’ve experienced that.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:32:44]:
Oh, yeah. Especially again, in the neurodiverse community because we’re more prone to having these meltdowns. Right. So if it backfires, my response is typically. My natural response has been, oh, I should have done it differently. Oh, I’m a lousy parent. Right. I’m a failure.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:33:03]:
Well, hold on. We know what we do when we feel a should. Right. We sigh, see, and start again. And so I’ve noticed it in myself, with years of practicing this, and I’ve heard it from parent after parent who’s tried the method, that it completely changes your attitude toward your own parenting and toward mistakes. So mistakes are no longer a crisis.

Dana Jonson [00:33:26]:
Yeah.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:33:27]:
They’re part of learning. Everything I try as a parent, everything I start is a learning opportunity.

Dana Jonson [00:33:33]:
Right.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:33:33]:
And if it doesn’t work, I just sigh, see, and start again. Don’t miss the science. See? Don’t jump. Right. To start, you know, and.

Dana Jonson [00:33:41]:
No, no, no, it’s great because I think, like you said, that it’s a pause. And if you can pause and breathe and observe, you’re going to be in such a better place to respond. Even if that response is still anger or whatever it is, it’s going to be so, so much more productive anger. And it’s going to be better thought through. You know, I can’t tell you the number of things that have just popped out of my mouth that really shouldn’t have, you know, because I wasn’t able to take that pause.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:34:11]:
That’s right. And usually those things are things we heard growing up or, you know, something that’s coming from that should storm culture. And they’re often not helpful or even, you know, so. So, yeah, it helps us avoid that. But I think what’s also cool is as we change our attitude toward ourselves and we shift away from Perfectionism toward a really positive, like, hey, I’m learning, I’m trying things and I’m learning. What kind of space does that give our kids? Right. Suddenly, if we’re giving our space, self space to grow in a natural way, you know, in a deliberate but gentle way toward ourselves, well, we’re giving that space to our kids. And what’s one of the number one things neurodiverse kids feel? They feel like they’re messing up all the time.

Dana Jonson [00:34:58]:
They’re not doing anything right ever. They have people telling them they’re not doing anything right all the time.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:35:04]:
Right. And you might think gifted learners is an exception, but that’s not the case.

Dana Jonson [00:35:09]:
No.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:35:10]:
They also, even if they’re getting success and positive feedback in schoolwork, maybe there are other areas of their life where they are feeling like they’re always out of sync or they’re never getting it right or they’re never quite like other people. So, yeah, it really affects everybody. And if it’s not about getting it right, it’s about seeing what works and learning together. I mean, that’s just a totally different dynamic. And parents tell me that with practice, it transforms their home. And I never expected to hear something so amazing like that. Like it’s transformed my home. Right.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:35:46]:
I just hope to help parents a little, like. But to hear that it’s helping that much, I mean, that’s really. It’s something I hope that can reach other families and help them too, you know?

Dana Jonson [00:35:57]:
Yeah. And I can absolutely see that. And you know, I have several neurodiverse children, some more than others. And it taking that pause for me, I didn’t no sigh. See, start at the time. But being able to take that time to take a breath and observe the situation before I jumped in is game changing. No matter how it is that I’m going to jump in. And I could see that that’s game changing.

Dana Jonson [00:36:25]:
And so it’s a matter of remembering it. And when you talk about the talking to death with kids, which I do to my kids all the time, but my son, I heard him one say, he’s like, yeah, when she’s yelling, it’s fine. If she goes silent, get worried.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:36:40]:
Oh, I love that.

Dana Jonson [00:36:42]:
That’s good to know.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:36:44]:
But you know, the other thing I wanted to point out, if you don’t mind, is just you mentioned the pause. And I think that’s really important when we have time. But we don’t always have time to pause. Right. What if your child’s neurodiverse meltdowns include possible Physical harm. Right. Some kids bang their heads. Some kids, you know, can be really wild with their bodies in an unsafe way.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:37:06]:
And one of the ways our nervous system responds to too much overstimulation or a feeling of threat. It might be fight or flight, but sometimes it’s freeze. And I’ve experienced both as a parent and what I think is cool about Psych Start is especially once you’ve been doing it for a while, it becomes second nature. So you don’t even necessarily think the. The steps out loud anymore. They just happen. It becomes a mindset. And that’s great.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:37:35]:
In freeze moments, like that moment where I will freeze because my kid’s doing something dangerous. Sifey start. Right. Grab him and pull him away from there. Right. Pull him. My little one. Oh, my gosh.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:37:49]:
He used to really make every possible effort to run in front of cars in the parking lot at all times. Love that there were years like that. Right. And so, you know, just being able to quickly mobilize out of that freeze response and grab my child has also been a helpful part of that tool. Right, so it’s good for crisis management, too.

Dana Jonson [00:38:11]:
No, that is a very good point, because you don’t always have the time to completely calm yourself down. But I hear what you’re saying with that as a methodology, and it’s just sort of second nature to you. You know, you can respond better. You know, I think under any circumstances, even if it has to be very.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:38:27]:
Very quick and not perfectly, sometimes you still mess it up, and that’s okay.

Dana Jonson [00:38:31]:
Right, Right. Right. I heard somebody speaking who’s a. An author of a different. A different parenting book, and they said that when they had an argument with their child, they found their child in the room writing Liar all over her book and reading pages. And I thought that was the best example. She’s like, so we don’t always get it right.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:38:54]:
That’s awesome.

Dana Jonson [00:38:55]:
Funny. Yeah. So we’re talking a lot about neurodiversity, but what about sometimes the behaviors are just a symptom of something bigger happening? And what I hear a lot from the classroom, from the teacher, is I know they have this issue, but they’re doing that on purpose. Or I know that, you know, they. They don’t have a challenge with that. You think they do, but I know they’re smart enough to know a difference. And so how do you distinguish. And I don’t believe they’re bad kids.

Dana Jonson [00:39:29]:
I. I just don’t. I think the kids might be responding poorly to a bad situation, but, you know, I don’t think kids are innately bad. That’s not what they’re natural pleasers. I mean, there might be sociopathic things out there that are different, but as a rule, children are different. Oh, what would I say wrong?

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:39:47]:
Even sociopaths, the science shows that raised with compassion and appropriate expectations, most sociopaths are productive members of society. They just don’t have a lot of empathy.

Dana Jonson [00:40:02]:
Interesting.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:40:03]:
So, no, I. As a pediatrician, I do not believe there are bad children. I can’t. I’ve known too many of them. I meet them when they’re babies. They’re all just, you know, they’ve all just got those little souls looking out of their eyes and like, no, no.

Dana Jonson [00:40:18]:
So, but when. When is it not? Neurodiversity, I guess, is what I’m kind of getting at. And how do you distinguish between. Because there it is true sometimes, you know, my. I have a child who has selective hearing depending on who the teacher was. Right. And it’s just because he didn’t like her. And.

Dana Jonson [00:40:34]:
And it was. It was not part of his disability or anything else. He just didn’t like his teacher. And so, you know, distinguishing that from something else, how do we do that? Do. Because you’d approach it differently, I presume.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:40:46]:
I would say. I would reframe that. And I would suggest that that might. It’s funny. I’ve been watching the latest season of True Detective, and on the show the Detective, she keeps saying, wrong question. Ask the right question. Right. So for me, the question here is not, is that what.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:41:04]:
What part of my kid is that from? It’s how can I help my child achieve this expectation?

Dana Jonson [00:41:11]:
Interesting.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:41:12]:
So, and I see your point, because sometimes when it’s related to disability, we are going to reassess the expectation and change the expectation. Right. I get that.

Dana Jonson [00:41:20]:
Yes.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:41:21]:
But most of the time. But most of the time, it’s what’s going wrong that my child is not meeting this expectation. And maybe it’s your child decided that that’s just not an expectation they feel is important and they’re not going to value it. Which, by the way, is a classically neurodiverse thing to say. Right. Because neurodiverse kids tend to question the rules in a way that neurotypical kids do less. So that’s actually part of neurodiversity to say, well, no, I think this is an irrelevant way to do this, Mom. Like, I think the teacher’s stupid to do it that way, and I’m not going to do it.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:41:57]:
Right, right, right.

Dana Jonson [00:41:58]:
I Know a better way or.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:42:00]:
Or if we get curious. And that’s. That’s again, what the sigh and see part is about. It’s about getting curious. What am I seeing? Right. A lot of times start is asking, especially if your child’s old enough where you can have a conversation about it. Because, you know, with younger kids, sometimes you can get some information and sometimes you can’t. But, hey, buddy, I noticed this, you know, or I heard about this, you know, like, hey, what’s going on with that? And there’s a whole chapter in the book that addresses working on our approach so that our kids actually trust us enough to give us the information.

Dana Jonson [00:42:36]:
Yeah.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:42:37]:
Because we have to stop. We have to really prove to them that we are actually genuinely interested. We’re not immediately going to tell them how they need to be different.

Dana Jonson [00:42:45]:
Right, right.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:42:46]:
Or criticize them. Right. And so. Okay. And I have found with my own kids that the answers are often valid. Very surprising. But, yeah, I’ve had that with my own kids. I mean, and the other one that is a very common one we hear from teachers is, well, they do it 70% or they do it 80% of the time they’re not doing this.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:43:06]:
Other times they just need to do it because they can. We know they can.

Dana Jonson [00:43:09]:
Well, no, I love that one because I know they can.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:43:12]:
No, no. And that’s a classic feature of adhd. And in my opinion, I think it’s definitely true in autism as well. Just because they can do it sometimes doesn’t mean they can do it all the time. Right.

Dana Jonson [00:43:25]:
Well, my response to that is always, well, I’m thrilled to hear that so and so is able to keep it together during art.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:43:33]:
Right.

Dana Jonson [00:43:33]:
Or recess. That’s wonderful. We’ve got two places now that that student is able to keep it together. What are we going to do so that they can keep it together during the rest of them? You know, think about someone, like, with.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:43:47]:
A physical disability, right. Like, they may be able to, let’s say there’s something with their legs and they use an assistive device to walk.

Dana Jonson [00:43:56]:
Right.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:43:56]:
But it’s really exhausting for them. Right. So they may be able to do it for a certain amount of time, but at a certain point, their body is too tired and they just can’t keep doing it. They need to rest. And neurodiverse kids, in part, just because of the sensory overload that normal life brings on a daily basis, they get tired often sooner than their peers. You know, they say that folks with sensory sensitivities are processing about Five times the amount of information at any one time compared to the typical brain. And that’s exhausting, right?

Dana Jonson [00:44:35]:
It is. It’s absolutely exhausting if your brain doesn’t shut off, if you’re not able to separate out every single noise. And, you know, that’s why some kids are able to keep it together all day at school and they come home and they completely fall apart. They just fall apart. And the school says, well, we don’t see that here. I’ll say. But you’re going to. Because if they’re falling off when they falling apart when they step off the bus, at some point that’s going to start creeping into the school day and then we’re going to have a bigger problem.

Dana Jonson [00:45:02]:
So how do we address this so that school isn’t so painful? Because a lot of times what that turns into is school avoidance.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:45:10]:
Yes. And think about the poor parents, what we’re dealing with at home.

Dana Jonson [00:45:14]:
I know, I know. Yeah, it’s excruciating.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:45:18]:
Yeah, it’s a lot.

Dana Jonson [00:45:20]:
So this is. This has been so unbelievably helpful. I’ve really loved this conversation because I think it’s so critical to better understand neurodiversity and what it actually means. Because as we discussed, sometimes it can just look like a temper tantrum or look like the parent isn’t doing something that they should be doing. Should be. See, there’s a should. And you know, to try and take that away in a society that is really obsessed with the shoulds, like really obsessed with it. I think it’s.

Dana Jonson [00:45:55]:
And what’s hard for parents is it’s not always easy to stand up and be like, that’s tough. That’s how I parent. Right. It’s not easy. It’s easy to feel less than and feel judged. And that’s exhausting too. And as you said, also neurodiversity, it’s often genetic. Right.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:46:12]:
It’s.

Dana Jonson [00:46:12]:
It’s. So it’s likely that a parent may have. Be struggling with the same issues at the same time. And it, you know, it’s a perfect storm. So I think this has been really great. And I love Scissy Start. Comes out the end of the month. Is that one.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:46:28]:
It’s on sale February 20th, but it’s already available wherever books are sold.

Dana Jonson [00:46:34]:
Oh, okay, great. Because I was looking on Amazon and it said February 20th, so. But excellent. So you can pre order. Awesome. I’m definitely going to pre order this. It sounds amazing and I love how you say it can. It works with other strategies.

Dana Jonson [00:46:48]:
So it’s not telling you you can’t implement whatever it is that you agree with or whatever philosophy you like. It’s just giving you a mechanism through which to start. Right?

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:47:00]:
That’s right. So this is a philosophy, and it is a mindset because there is a philosophy of positivity here. Right. I believe in parents abilities. I believe in kids abilities. I think we know more about what we need than we think, which is part of what the philosophy is.

Dana Jonson [00:47:15]:
But.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:47:15]:
But I had no intention of writing a book with that attitude. We sometimes see, which is this is the only way to parent, and every other way is wrong, and you need to do it this way or you need to share my specific set of cultural or religious values or whatever. Like, I have great respect, and I’ve been fortunate to care for a culturally and internationally diverse group of families. And, you know, every culture and tradition has something to offer. So this is meant to be a very respectful approach that doesn’t say it has to be precisely this way or it has to be that. But within that, we really want to approach our kids with respect. We do want to move away from the shaming of our culture and the shaming that we may have grown up with that isn’t helpful for our kids or ourselves.

Dana Jonson [00:48:07]:
Right, right. If we didn’t like it, why are we doing it?

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:48:09]:
Yeah, it didn’t feel good. It didn’t help me learn. It usually made me shut down.

Dana Jonson [00:48:16]:
Right, exactly. So why are we doing it now? I always love that when people say, well, that’s what my parents did. It’s like, yeah, but you didn’t like it, so doesn’t make it correct. I love the concept that it’s, you know, it’s a place to start. And it’s. It’s about regulating you as well. You know, it’s. It’s not just about the child.

Dana Jonson [00:48:34]:
It’s about regulating yourself that you’re prepared to handle the child. Right. To make that decision on what to do next. And so I’m very excited to read this. Is there anything we missed? I feel like we covered a lot of ground.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:48:47]:
I mean, I feel like you and I could have.

Dana Jonson [00:48:50]:
I could keep talking to you for, like, another. I was just thinking that I’m like, in my head coming up with other topics to get you back to discuss.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:48:57]:
Oh, the gifts that come with neurodiversity is one of my favorite stuff. Subjects like, oh, so. But that’s. That’s it for another time, for sure.

Dana Jonson [00:49:08]:
That’s another. Oh, that. That’ll be a good one. Though. I like that. See? Thank you. And also maybe long Covid. Sure.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:49:13]:
Yeah.

Dana Jonson [00:49:14]:
Because there’s a lot to it. Right.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:49:16]:
I’d love to come back and talk about either of those things. People have no idea how many highly successful people I know who are neurodiverse.

Dana Jonson [00:49:26]:
Interesting. Yeah. I mean, we hear that, and everyone’s like, ooh, they’re neurodiverse, too. And I was like, I think we might be in the major majority here. I’m not really sure it’s a minority, but. Okay. Well, Allison, thank you so much for joining me. And if anyone says, like, well, first of all, you can find the book on Amazon, as you can find almost any book, but anywhere that you buy books, you can get it.

Dana Jonson [00:49:52]:
Right. Size c, start by Dr. Ellis Conte. And is there another website? Is there somewhere you want me to direct people to if someone saying, you know, I need to find this woman?

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:50:04]:
Oh, sure. Well, there’s also a free chapter to read available as well, and the website is scicstart.com.

Dana Jonson [00:50:14]:
Okay, great. So go to scicstart.com if you want to learn a little bit more. And the book’s available.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:50:23]:
Yeah.

Dana Jonson [00:50:24]:
And I think you’ll definitely be back, so I’m excited.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:50:26]:
I would love that. I would love that. I love the neurodiverse community. Love it.

Dana Jonson [00:50:31]:
It’s perfect. Thank you so much for being here today.

Dr. Alison Escalante [00:50:34]:
Thank you.

Dana Jonson [00:50:36]:
Thank you so much for joining me today. Please don’t forget to follow this podcast so you don’t miss any new episodes and leave a review when you have a chance. If there’s anything you want to hear about or comment on, please go to my Facebook page, special Ed on Special Ed, and find me there. I’ll see you next time here on Special Ed. On Special Special Ed. Have a fabulous day.

Melody Murray [00:50:55]:
The views expressed in this episode are those of the speakers at the time of the recording and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any other agency, organization, employer, or company, or even that individual today.