Dana Jonson [00:00:08]:
Welcome back to Special Ed. On Special Ed, I’m your host, Dana Johnson, and today my guest is Michaell Magrutsche. He’s an Austrian, Californian multimedia artist and a fervent advocator for creativity and education. He has a background shaped by his own neurodiversity and a self taught journey across various creative disciplines. Michael brings a unique perspective to special education and all education. His advocacy for creativity, adaptability and healthy dialogue aims to revolutionize how we teach and foster inclusive learning environments for students with diverse needs. So please join me in saying hello. Hi Michael.

Dana Jonson [00:00:45]:
Thank you so much for joining me today.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:00:48]:
Thank you, Dana, for having me to paint. Giving me a canvas to paint.

Dana Jonson [00:00:53]:
Excellent. Well, before we get started, I have to play my disclaimer because I’m a lawyer, so I have to play a disclaimer, so let’s get that out of the way.

Disclaimer [00:01:00]:
The information in this podcast is provided for general informational and entertainment purposes only and may not reflect the current law in your jurisdiction at the time you’re listening. Nothing in this episode creates an attorney client relationship, nor is it legal advice. Do not act or refrain from acting on the basis of any information included in or accessible through this episode without seeking appropriate legal or other professional advice on the particular facts and circumstances at issue from a lawyer or service provider licensed in your state, country or other appropriate licensing jurisdiction.

Dana Jonson [00:01:21]:
Michael, I think the best place to start. I’d love to know your background as a multimedia artist. What’s your journey? What brought you to here?

Michaell Magrutsche [00:01:30]:
Very easy. Born in, in Austria, as a sick child, allergies, asthma. I had to do tar bar bath 40 years ago and all this stuff. So I was completely no youth. Okay.

Dana Jonson [00:01:43]:
Did you say tar bar bath?

Michaell Magrutsche [00:01:45]:
Yeah. And stuff? Yeah. So, okay, so stinky bath and stuff. They helped me back and put me to school at seven and 40 years ago. No matter. 50 years ago, nobody care did anything. You just, okay, you go at seven, you have asthma, you go at seven. So I went there and I got punched in the face, Literally.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:02:08]:
I was very good with the students. I was very human centric. They loved me, I love them. I was never bullied, but I was systemically excluded because I couldn’t regurgitate. I couldn’t regurgitate. So I understood, okay, when you take 2 and you put 4 and then E6, I understood that. But when you test me and I didn’t feel right, I couldn’t put it at that time, I couldn’t execute it and I couldn’t read. I was stuttering because of DYSLEXIA extreme dyslexia, which is still today.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:02:50]:
I mean, I wrote six books and have the computer read it to me. So. So I’m writing. I’m writing, listening, editing. So it takes me. I probably would have gotten. If I was system relevant. What was.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:03:06]:
If I saw system relevant? Neurotypical. If I was in system neurotypical, I would probably have done 40 books. But it takes me so long to get into. But I get extreme wisdom.

Dana Jonson [00:03:20]:
Well, yeah, because when you take that kind of time, I understand. Because I’m dyslexic myself. So you retain so much more. Because we have to do so much more to ingest the information.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:03:31]:
Yeah, yeah. That’s why we’re probably a good lawyer. Because you know your stuff. You’re not. You’re not hustling for it.

Dana Jonson [00:03:41]:
Exactly.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:03:43]:
And the thing is. Yeah, And. And. And so I had to repeat classes. I was a very. My spirit was very strong. So I would have been. If I would.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:03:54]:
Would be neurotypical, I would be an A student because I had, like, tutors in everything. And I couldn’t do it. I was like. It stopped. It wouldn’t allow me. My condition wouldn’t allow me to move on. So in Europe, they don’t take you with you. You have to repeat classes.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:04:12]:
So I have eight years of school total.

Dana Jonson [00:04:16]:
Oh, wow.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:04:17]:
And of these eight years of schools, I had to repeat two. Two or three. So you are 12 years old. But this was 40 years ago.

Dana Jonson [00:04:26]:
Right, right, right, right. Today it’s a different ball game.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:04:30]:
All schools are bad.

Dana Jonson [00:04:31]:
No, no, no, no, no. But I understand what you’re saying. It was a different time. I mean, I was raised in schools that didn’t have the idea yet, so to add Europe to it.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:04:41]:
So, yeah, yeah, it was very weird. That whole thing is where most people don’t know about neurodiversity, even though 25%, as you know, of humans have neurodiversity. Because I think there is no handicap in humanity. We are all. Nature doesn’t make a mistake and say, okay, this elephant was neurodiverse. Now what are we gonna do with this elephant? He’s gonna be lost. No, it doesn’t exist. We are specialized for other.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:05:10]:
Which, you know, we are very good in other things. I mean, I can pull out of every context, literally every context. That’s why I am not. People say, oh, you’re philosopher. I said, don’t call me philosopher. This is my education model, you know, to do, you know, all this stuff and one. One subject that is mandatory. Is 10 to a pet.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:05:32]:
Because language is a system. It’s also systemic. What you can say and especially today, what you can and can’t say and to interact with a living being that doesn’t speak the same language is unbelievable, enriching and makes you tremendously aware and conscious. And also it keeps you in your human uniqueness, in your one of oneness.

Dana Jonson [00:06:00]:
Yeah, interesting. And I think also that idea of having that responsibility too, of another being, it brings another level, particularly for students. That self confidence, that ability, and then as you said, that nonverbal communication that needs to develop. So your work and your philosophy and on human potential through creativity. Let’s talk a little bit about that. So you know that grew out of your childhood, correct?

Michaell Magrutsche [00:06:27]:
Yeah. So I repeated everything and, and then. So till I couldn’t do it anymore, there was no more chance systemically that I could repeat something or go into lower grade because I went from a high, a higher grade school to a lower grade school and repeated. So I did everything. But I had, you know what? They gave me human centricly so much because I got. Who has all these different schools? You know, they go to Harvard and leave Harvard, you know, I mean, so what. Who has that. I had all this experience.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:07:01]:
What is low education, was higher education. What is this, this, this, this. And that was phenomenal. And what happens afterwards? They said, you gotta get a job. Yep. So a job. How do you get a job when you cannot regurgitate? The, the easiest paid jobs are the ones that you can regurgitate that are so simple that you don’t have to think, you don’t have to comprehend. You just take this and take that.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:07:29]:
So a lot of my life was either in creativity or in hospitality. So what happened then was I. I found that I’m relevant when I do art. So I love music, obviously, because that makes you a connection. See, this is very important because that becomes also a part of the educational program that I work. So music is non verbal, non systemic. And it’s. And you have to, in order to.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:08:01]:
To enjoy music, you have to listen to it and you have to feel. It’s not like, oh, you got. Intellectually you just, oh, this is a 3, 4 rhythm. And that’s it. You know, that never got to. There’s a lot of three, four rhythms everywhere. You know, that’s not gonna, you know, that’s not gonna fulfill you. So you keep selecting what you resonate with, which is human centric.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:08:26]:
And I was very drawn to music and even music just to give, give you A listener’s understanding.

Dana Jonson [00:08:32]:
Sure.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:08:33]:
I was so involved in Jimi Hendrix and the Beatles and the Rolling Stones, and I wanted to have a. Have a. Have a guitar. I thought the guitar from the aesthetic was so beautiful. And every. Emma was shredding on the guitar and I said, oh, my God, I gotta get a guitar. I want to learn guitar. I did two years with a.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:08:55]:
And at that time in Europe, you are not systemically not allowed to buy an electric guitar. I bought one. You’re not allowed to have. Not to play it. You have to learn first. So systemically, the conditioning was you should never have an electric guitar, but you should have learn classical guitar. And then you can interpret and you graduate. Graduate and interpret with like, you know, learn how to paint and then paint abstract.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:09:27]:
This is the whole. How they systemically controlled the arts. A human centric thing. And I was learning for two years. I literally can play four chords. I literally cannot. Because I’m not only dyslexic, I’m also. Also my dyslexia comes with dysgraphia, which is the brain hand coordination.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:09:48]:
Because I can’t write. You know, when I read my writing, I lose the context. So unless I do caps, but even if I do caps, like if I write in caps, Dana was really good and she’s a lawyer. And if I would have looked at that tomorrow, I couldn’t get the context.

Dana Jonson [00:10:11]:
I like the way you said it though, because it is. It’s that brain hand coordination as opposed to. I think we think of it as just being writing in general, but that impacts.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:10:21]:
It’s a skill. It’s not a skill. It has nothing to do with skill.

Dana Jonson [00:10:24]:
It impacts so many other activities because that coordination is not there. And it’s confusing really, in your brain.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:10:33]:
Sports. I could never do sports. With a ball or something. Yeah, I couldn’t. You know, holding. I lose, you know, when I’m holding things. My, my. And I want to hold them.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:10:43]:
They open up. So I have to be very careful with things, you know, with a lot of things lifting and stuff and coordination. Brain, hands. So I thought that what made me actually still be here today is art. Because art saved my life. Because. And you know how many adolescents are out there, they want to kill themselves. They hear a song or they.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:11:08]:
Or they see a movie and they get a new truth of life again. Because we all think we have. Because we are driven till seven, or at least seven. We are really driven to fit in because that’s our survival. We learn what it is to be a human. So we are driven. It’s DNA driven. Like women are DNA driven to men too, but women to procreate till 28.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:11:34]:
DNA. So I always say to women, I don’t know about a baby. I said, please wait till after 28, because then it’s not a DNA drive.

Dana Jonson [00:11:42]:
Then it’s really interesting.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:11:44]:
Yeah.

Dana Jonson [00:11:44]:
I was going to say maybe I missed. I didn’t have babies, so I was a little older, so. But that’s good. Then that was that what you’re saying?

Michaell Magrutsche [00:11:51]:
It wasn’t just an instinct because you know how many girls that are guys, but. But more Girls are like 14. They want to have a baby, you know, and it’s not a doll, but that DNA. And you make them wrong. And that’s so wrong to make them wrong.

Dana Jonson [00:12:10]:
Right.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:12:10]:
Instead of explaining, honey, that’s your DNA. You are part of nature. You are like an animal.

Dana Jonson [00:12:16]:
Right.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:12:16]:
And animals have that drive. But it doesn’t mean that you want to have 60 years with a kid. You know, that’s interesting. Depression. Yeah. Because I pull out of everything. I can talk to every topic in the world. This one I did since March 22, I did.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:12:36]:
I think 350 podcasts was invited to different broadcasts and talk about always something different. I’ve never had this talk. I talked about education, but never in this context, because I’m plugging also in. I can plug into our mastermind.

Dana Jonson [00:12:53]:
Well, and the other thing I like how you talk about, you know, that systemic issue of you have to do this first and then that. My daughter’s actually an artist as well, and she loves to paint. But when she would take formal classes, they insisted she draw because you had to learn to draw to learn to paint. Why she stopped, she was like, I’m not gonna do it cause I don’t want to draw. So she does. I mean, she still paints and she still does her own thing, but she just. She would say to me, you know, that. Just don’t want to do that.

Dana Jonson [00:13:26]:
And I was like, well, then don’t, you know, and do what makes you happy.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:13:31]:
So perfect that you mentioned this, because I feel I had like a C in art. I think I’m one of five people in the world that really understands the creation, the art creation. Not anything about the history, not anything about the product, but what the power of creation. Because it helped me. Help me. Who I am today is because, look, if. If your daughter draws, what is that conditioning, educational deconditioning to regurgitate. If she paints whatever she wants to paint.

Dana Jonson [00:14:08]:
Yes.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:14:08]:
She has a feedback of her Uniqueness. She’s one of. One of 8 billion people and not a woman or anything. She’s one of. And life is to figure out why nature made me one of one. So I can’t be just. I can’t be just wasteful and just thrown away and my life is worth something. Because nature doesn’t make mistakes.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:14:31]:
That is, by the way, scientifically proven. Nature doesn’t make mistakes. So systemically, we are so into regurgitating that we have to say, you know, Donna, I think I have a new idea to make people better than in nature. And I think why. I understand if you lose your leg and there is an amputated leg and you have a technology with AI that the person can absolutely. But you say, oh, the system doesn’t like your nose right now, Dana, or mine, so we have to get it changed systemically. It doesn’t like my hair color. It doesn’t like this.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:15:10]:
There’s no fulfillment in that. The fulfillment is discovering why you are one of one.

Dana Jonson [00:15:16]:
Right. And it makes me think of, you know, for a while, my children, a couple of them were homeschooled and they went to a homeschooling co op. I didn’t do it myself, but my daughter was one of them. And she actually also has dyslexia, so she has the neurodiversity piece. And she really, once she was given more control over her education, how she learned different things and. And a lot of creativity was infused into her education because that’s what was important to her. She completely flourished. You know, that.

Dana Jonson [00:15:48]:
That concept of having to learn this, then that, then the next thing, and do it in this specific way and regurgitate the information back to me to prove that you have. It just did not work for her. And to be able, actually, and my son as well, like, being able to discuss things and have more enriching conversations about it and to be able to incorporate their interests and their own art and how, however they see it, made a huge difference for them in their education. And some people would say, well, if you just let them have control over their education, they’re not going to ever do anything that learns something. And it wasn’t true. You know, when we said, you guys choose, they did, and they chose to go to school and they chose to do certain things. And it was just. It was an interesting.

Dana Jonson [00:16:32]:
An interesting view on that, you know, that we don’t have to learn in that very rigid way that just doesn’t work for some people.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:16:41]:
Learning is the only way to learning. I found and Literally, I found that in the last year, really is if you have a system, relevant contact, a dialogue, like in politics, 100% lawyer, probably also. But it’s funny because your power as a lawyer or a politician is your human centricity to understand the context and to play with the dance with the context. It’s not to get linear. You know, this law, this has to follow. It is the play of it. And we function human centricly, meaning, like nature. We buy a Ferrari because we want to buy a Ferrari, not because we want to buy a Maserati or a Durant Rover.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:17:27]:
We buy whatever resonates with us, and that’s what we buy, and that’s what we’re doing. We said, I want kids, but I want a boy. I want. This is what we do, or I want a girl. So we act like this. And when you get. So this is the disturbance of war. I just did a white paper on war, and I cannot tell you, I look just human centered at war.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:17:53]:
It is so simple. The other thing is also when you make something systemic, it becomes complicated. When you, when you align to nature, it becomes intricate. Meaning there is no finite solution. There’s no, you know, there is no. Okay, yeah, this is it. And this is an elephant. Is an elephant.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:18:18]:
I look at the elephants. They have big ears, they have small ears. They want to this day. No, everybody is unique. And it’s. And finding is so important, is so fulfilling. Finding our connection, how we’ve like this. That’s why I like podcasts so much, because podcast is a human centric savior, literally, because you and I have to have to communicate to each other, and we have to take our six senses and align.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:18:50]:
And then. And in that alignment, we gain a perspective, a wider perspective, which doesn’t make us tired, make us only tired to digest information that we just increased. And then everybody that listens can connect with it, even though they are not neurodiverse, they can relate to it.

Dana Jonson [00:19:17]:
Right? And I think to that point, you’re right. And I think that’s why podcasts have taken off so much, especially during the pandemic, because it was listening to people connect. And in a different forum where you felt it’s a more intimate forum, you know, and you’re. You’re listening to people discuss things that are. They’re passionate about, you know, but everything you’re saying reminds me of. You’ve probably seen the cartoon of, you know, the elephant, the lion, the monkey, the fish, and it says, and there’s a tree, and it says, if you test a fish by how well it climbs a tree, it’s never going to be successful. Right. So that’s sort of to what you’re saying, is that finding your own strength and interest and combining those pieces and allowing that to shine through is what I think you’re saying, helps children or anybody really.

Dana Jonson [00:20:10]:
But to find their inner strength and.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:20:13]:
To find their self confidence because it expands the perception. 8 billion people that are unique with DNA, fingerprints. DNA fingerprints and what else? There’s something else. They also have a one of one view on life. Just look at your family. Every single person in your family. You live with them, you’re always together with them. Why do they not be similar and do the same things? Like semen system, teachers, they all look.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:20:45]:
So you go to a movie and it totally fulfills you. Your daughter goes and moves it. This is the mom. What could you like in a movie? I like the film, but I can’t believe that you like a movie. And this is why. Why there is no right and you can’t. And this is what we need to wake up back after we know it anyway. But we need to realize it again.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:21:05]:
Remember that you can’t generalize. You can’t generalize humans because everybody’s one of one. And you can’t even generalize woman, even that is a subcategory of humans. Yeah. Female, because there’s more female, more feminine men out there and more masculine woman than I have ever seen a man or woman.

Dana Jonson [00:21:27]:
Well, you know, that’s. We were talking before that, you know, that’s my son. My son will say, you know, that’s. That’s a social construct. Gender is just a social construct. That isn’t something we’ve made up.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:21:38]:
He knows, right?

Dana Jonson [00:21:39]:
And yeah, and you know, this is what we’ve decided. So when, you know, you ask him pronouns, he’s like, I don’t care. Call me what you want. It doesn’t mean anything.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:21:46]:
You know, exactly, exactly. That’s what the whole generation. I find that with a lot of young people, they said it’s too complicated. Why can’t I say, hey, Dana? I don’t have to say oh, Ms. Dana. Oh, Dana is a woman. Or let me ask that woman, Dana. This is how systemic thing is.

Dana Jonson [00:22:05]:
Well, and I have to write, when I check boxes, I have to say whether it’s Ms. Ms. Or Mrs. You.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:22:10]:
Know, it doesn’t help. And when you, when I tell you you’re going to love my war thing because it shows systemic things. I don’t know anything about war. Zero. I just looked at war, human centricly, what it does to humans. And it is so simple. And I know also the reason why you can keep going war because that’s the extreme systemic thing you can do in systems, which is probably really good for you, for your judgment, for your being a lawyer. You can do something in systemically.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:22:46]:
When you hide it, when you hide. When you’re not transparent. So when. When you know there’s a law that can get me. Yeah. And I don’t know it. And you. You lure me into.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:23:01]:
To. To. To say things. You know, then you can get me, but you can control me. Meaning you get money out of it. And the more. And life isn’t about money. It isn’t.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:23:13]:
It is about. Life is about finding yourself. And then once you know what your participation is in humanity. So what can I give to Dana? What can Dana give to me? Then I go and say, ah, I find Dana is really good in writing. I’m not good in writing, so I want to say something. She likes what I say. Dana, can you put it in a sentence? And this is how we work together. And both win.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:23:42]:
Everybody wins. You get aware that actually your writing is appreciated. And I get aware that what I say has impact because you make it in a way that it has impact. And this is where the power is. It’s never in the system. System relevance. That’s why human centricity is so much more powerful when you make sense of. I was so literally.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:24:06]:
It took me. I got seven days before Christmas. All this stuff came in. I couldn’t. And I never care about war. I just don’t like war. When I hear. When I hear, it’s not fun to.

Dana Jonson [00:24:20]:
Listen to or listen about.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:24:21]:
No, no. When I hear Ukraine, Russia, which Ukraine is four hours from Austria, you know.

Dana Jonson [00:24:26]:
Yes.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:24:27]:
So. And then. And then the Israeli Palestinian war. Well, I was so happy the moment they put up the wall that everybody starts. That all the young kids start marrying Palestinian. And Dinju, I was so happy about that. So. And now I see the fighting again.

Dana Jonson [00:24:44]:
Yes.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:24:44]:
But the only thing is the manipulation power of not knowing and not being honest. And that increases exponentially the more system relevant you are. Because in the old days, you went to a woman and they said, okay, Dana, what do you have? I said, my ear hurts. Take that, Herb. And you were healthy. Today you come and it’s going to be a procedure where 15 people earn money to give because money is more important than our collaboration. And our collaboration is the most important. And that’s with the Knowledge like that herb that she gave you might not help you, but it helped me.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:25:26]:
Because you’re one of one.

Dana Jonson [00:25:27]:
No, it’s just. That’s what I was thinking was what you’re talking about is that collaboration, being able to collaborate versus control, right? So, you know, when you’re trying to. You’re talking about war, and I think what you’re saying is that that’s a control thing. You’re trying to control it. You’re trying to get. Whether it’s money or power or what have you, it’s not a collaborative process. And that, you know, coming down to the simplest way of saying it is collaboration. When we used to collaborate, when we used to help each other and have that ability.

Dana Jonson [00:26:01]:
And I think to that point, when I think of it in terms of education for some students, I actually had this with one of my children. She’s given an assignment, and she wanted to do it a certain way, and she was told no. And then later I was told she didn’t do the assignment because she refused to participate because she wasn’t allowed to try her thing. And when I asked her, I said, well, why weren’t you listening? Why didn’t you do this? She goes, I wanted to do this, and they wouldn’t let me try it. And I said, well, you know, that’s pretty unlikely. That’s going to work. And she said, yeah, but no one would let me try it. And so I let her try it.

Dana Jonson [00:26:32]:
And, you know, she did whatever she needed to do, and then she moved on and did the rest of the assignment because she just wanted to reach out to this person who she knew would probably never respond, but she wanted that opportunity to do it, and that’s all she wanted to do. And then once that was done, she was willing to come to the table and do what was asked of her.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:26:50]:
So beautiful. Thank you for that beautiful story. Because that is confirming what I say is about your. Why you unique. Perhaps she reaching out to that person would have given her way more of her uniqueness than finish the assignment. Do you understand that? This is amazing. Thank you so much for that. Because.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:27:12]:
Because every. There’s nobody wrong. You are not wrong. You have a different context in talking. I have a different. Because we all have different views of life, but there is no wrong. There’s only expanding. Expanding our perception by dialogue where we both contribute.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:27:31]:
And we both contribute because that’s why we are one of one. And that’s why, like people say, oh, you got to believe in God. You got to do this. And I said, how can a person that is just told God is the absolute authority be suffering like me, suffering in their own life and be told what to do, Try everything. Nothing worked. I went to doctors, all the doctors in Merck, when I took responsibility for healing myself. Not with heal. Not giving you.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:28:04]:
Oh, Dana, just heal me. No, I figured it out myself.

Dana Jonson [00:28:08]:
I don’t have that power.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:28:09]:
No, I expanded my perception, meaning I talked to a lot of people and that’s what healed me. Not any systemic thing. And when we expand like that, we learn more of who we are and we are fulfilled. And this is with the God. It’s fulfillment. This goes. Fulfillment is emotional feedback loop. Not gluttony, not I want to eat 10 ice creams and it’s natural food.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:28:41]:
That is not fulfillment. But for example, our thing right now, very fulfilling. Our conversation, our dance. Phenomenal. Phenomenal. You know, so I mean, I feel so much gratitude. Just when I got your letter, I felt gratitude. But I feel so much gratitude because I could have been wrong.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:29:01]:
You could have had AI do it, and I could have been wrong about you. But there’s so much gratitude. And think and see this automatically you feel fulfillment. You feel gratitude. You don’t have to do a gratitude journal. You have to experience gratitude with other people to integrate it. Because you can write five journals about gratitude and it doesn’t you. If you don’t feel it, it’s not.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:29:26]:
It’s irrelevant. Love. How many books on love we have and nobody. And if you don’t know what love is, if you never felt the emotion of love, these books are worthless. Worthless. Completely worthless. And you know, there’s libraries full of books on love. It’s a feedback loop that goes fulfillment, gratitude, happiness.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:29:49]:
And then you feel love. You feel so grateful and happy all the time, which I. It took me till 50 to do that. And then you feel so happy that you feel the love. You feel love. You. You don’t. You feel.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:30:02]:
That’s probably self love. You. You feel love. And then when I meet you, I’m not in love with you, but you are even amplifying my. This love and fulfillment that I have. So I get totally enthusiastic about it and passionate. Yeah. And I think when you’re longer with a person that does that, do you fall in love, but you’re not falling in love first? That is just a person that pumps you into your uniqueness.

Dana Jonson [00:30:32]:
Well, that’s like they say, you can’t love someone else until you love yourself. Right?

Michaell Magrutsche [00:30:36]:
Yeah.

Dana Jonson [00:30:36]:
You know, and so you. You can’t you can’t be your best self if you don’t even like yourself. And I think that happens a lot to our students who have all these challenges and are put up and given these bars to. To or challenges to reach that they can’t reach. And they look around and say, okay, well I can’t do this. They’re not busy finding the thing they can do. How do we bring this human centric artistic component into education? Because as you know, you are. You’re in California, right? So, you know, in the United States, our education system is very rigid right now.

Dana Jonson [00:31:17]:
Right. And we don’t have. I mean, we’re getting rid of art, we’re getting rid of specials. We’re spending more time learning to teach to the test. How do we bring this into our systems and into our schools for our students?

Michaell Magrutsche [00:31:29]:
In my last thing I wrote about the art education is, you know, it’s probably better to not educate you in art than educate you in art. Because education is not an expression. It is a patterning. So I know artists that paint and it looks like exactly what you see in a museum. There’s artists that are so good. I mean, she does everything. I know you’re not in BJ girl. She knows she’s such a good.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:31:56]:
She’s so much variety she can adapt to. Okay, I want to be at that art fair. Boom. She does and she gets there. She does something for museum. She gets it. It is better. What I think is essential.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:32:10]:
This is what I came up the best idea could and please you can add to it because I’m in the process with a lot of things all worldwide to talk about education about this model. We need a year or two to as humans because seven years. Okay, this is the logic. Seven. This is demig logic. Seven years. You are basically need to survive. That’s why you accept abuse as your survival.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:32:41]:
That’s why you accept whatever happens to you. As if you don’t get the praise. You’re not dependent on praise or abuse.

Dana Jonson [00:32:51]:
You’re just trying to survive.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:32:52]:
But you learn about him. You learn about them. You’re not depending on them, but you learn about him. And if. If abuse makes you survive because you know the the ultimate the end of humans. When I push you in a corner, the cutest animal bites. And when that’s our survival instinct. That’s DNA of I need to survive.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:33:13]:
That’s why you take on parents parenting, false parenting, neglected. And it’s good for pat wise because you have to learn to get in touch with how do they adapt Your adaption then when you’re seven, I think would be the most revealing and best thing for the world. Two, one or two years where everybody is together, nobody is. No segregation of woman, men, good, bad sports, artists or anything. You’re all together. You together play team sports. Because that’s the masculine organized, you know. And organization is a grace that humans have.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:33:58]:
We like to organize, organize. So team sports. And you see how many people love sports and watch sports. I don’t, but a lot of people do. So. And then team art creation. So I want to have positions where the person like the quarterback, the theater says, hey, Johnny, you’re the quarterback. We ran out of an old woman.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:34:27]:
We need an old woman that sits in and knits. He said, I gotta do it. In the days he would say, no, I’m not gonna do this. But in this education, to be human. He’s not programmed yet. He’s seven years old. And he would say, think. And then the third one is having a pet.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:34:46]:
I told you that.

Dana Jonson [00:34:47]:
Yes.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:34:47]:
And the fourth one, that’s only four subjects. The fourth one is awareness. It is a human discourse where educators learn, not a systemic. I’m right, you’re wrong. But how to discourse what they experience. Because that’s what life is, that’s what we do. I mean, I can share with you because I experienced this. I’ve not learned it anywhere.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:35:13]:
So they say, I didn’t want to be. I was so much in art, but I hated to be in the sports. And then they say, okay, we can solve that. You can be a referee. You can be in charge of the dresses of the thing. And the other says, I thought they’re crazy. Why don’t you old woman, I’m the quarterback, blah, blah, blah. And they talk about it and they take away the systemic relevance it just made.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:35:43]:
Does it fulfill you or does it not? Does it grow you? Because we all grow all the time. It never stop growing. You go to prison, you grow. There’s never. In nature, everything grows. And what is the highest thing in nature? Balance. Not systemic relevance. It’s balance.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:36:03]:
It’s accepting that we are all one, a unique one, interacting with each other. Finding up. That doesn’t mean you have to hug everybody to have any unique. It doesn’t mean you have to, you know, a lot of friends. It’s just. No, it’s just like. It’s like this is how you grow. Some people want to be more alone, some people want more with people.

Dana Jonson [00:36:25]:
Yeah. And I mean, it’s breaking down those, those social constructs. Right. And taking down those walls. And I like what you’re saying about doing it before they’re programmed because, you know, I do see that with young children as you’re saying, you know, before they’re seven or what have you, and they have a certain interest and then they get to a certain age and they’re told, well, you know, this happened to my son, you know, ballet is for girls. Right? And eventually he finally said, you know, well, where are the girls in the ballet? And I mean, where are the boys? Where’s the boy ballet? Where does that happen? I’m like, oh, that’s not really, you know. And so for him, that then became a negative. He was out, a fish out of water because there were girls in him.

Dana Jonson [00:37:07]:
And so, I mean, he wasn’t going to be the next Baryshnikov. But you know, it was that social construct that came in and let him to feel like, oh, I’m out of place here. And breaking down that. It would be great if we could break down those social constructs. But I think what are strategies that. I mean, I love this idea. I love it being human centric. And it does remind me a little bit of the homeschooling experience my kids had because giving them that freedom and that idea that.

Dana Jonson [00:37:37]:
I think there is an idea out there that if you give children freedom, they’re not going to do what they’re supposed to do. And I think that depends on what your vision is of what they’re supposed to do. If what they’re supposed to do is get into the hardest college there is and have a job that makes the absolute most conditioned already. That’s already conditioned, right? Conditioning, right. So if your goal is for them to be happy and self supportive and contributing members of society, that’s a different goal.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:38:07]:
Not society, human centric. What can I contribute? Because what are you doing? What is education doing with all the people like neurodiverse like you can relate to that? Did I not system relevant? Should we just die? Is that why we make wars? To just kill those people that are not system to give them drugs to fight wars and to kill them or put them in prison? 99% of people in prison on the earth. Is that our solution? Systemic solution? How to treat other humans? Because when we kill other humans, we have to take up the slack. The biggest misunderstanding is when you kill 100,000 people, you have to pick up the slack somewhere financially or some other way. And I want to say something to your son, a possibility that could have been min. If he would have learned if you would have said you want to do ballet, do it. You are one of one. I cannot tell you what to do because you are one of one.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:39:10]:
And that’s why I hate lecturing. Stop lecturing. Except in very system relevant. Like you need to lecture in law because that’s dependent on politics, dependent on things. But you don’t need to lecture in what you want to be. And so early. So let’s see. Let’s say I just tell you a possibility that could have happened.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:39:31]:
He would have danced like Baryshnikov, but not as good as Baryshnikov. But in that being in touch with his body, stretching, seeing the limitlessness that his body has to tapping on toes. He falls in love because he also likes football. He also falls in love with football. And he tries out. And they say, oh my God, this kid is unbelievable. He has such awareness of everything. He could be an ex quarterback.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:40:07]:
That could have happened. And that was because education didn’t do what it does. What’s supposed to. Education should be here to teach you first what it is. General. Not, not. Not. What can parents tell you to do is a human being? What is what we all accept? What is a human being? Not what is systemically a human being that we all want that it was gender, race and sexuality was system adapted.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:40:40]:
And we are just. We. We should do what we want to find how relevant we are to human centricly, which will help us to find system relevance much easier and much effective. Because if I find your son. That was a bully dance. Yeah. And is now a football player a number one thing. Then I win with the Broncos or whatever.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:41:07]:
Whenever, you know, I win with. With the team. So everybody wins. There is no when we are human centric, everybody wins. Why do we. And that’s the awareness and kids to say that’s very easy. It’s not hard because I gave it at the outset. Human centricity is easy.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:41:28]:
System relevance is hard because it works on making linear and binary what is natural.

Dana Jonson [00:41:37]:
Yeah. And I think that’s how we used to teach. Right. I’m using hand gestures that no one can see. But you know that it was the kids who learned like this were the ones who are successful and the ones on the outside who didn’t learn that way didn’t get anywhere. And now we have widened that lane. Right. So it’s a little wider.

Dana Jonson [00:41:54]:
And we have mechanisms to help those on the outside learn that way rather than opening that lane much wider and allowing people to learn the way that they Want to or that they are best at or that they are interested in. And I think, you know, being that as you said, systemic and forcing children to work within a certain system that just might not work for them. Rather than seeking what their strengths are and what their interests are, we’re putting them at a disadvantage.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:42:28]:
And especially in a, you know, in a world where literally we societally, which is a system too tell ourselves, oh, it’s not right to say him. Her. It’s not say or him. If you make everything systemic and don’t know that there is no right. I mean you. We can play that. I’m okay playing it. I’m complicated.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:42:49]:
You come to me with as being a transactional. That is your expression. You need to be a transactional. You need to be a man instead of a woman to learn to get whatever you need to get. And. And I don’t care whatever you do, you do, but you do you. But to make, to make somebody, there is something wrong with that. There’s nothing wrong with that.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:43:16]:
It makes life interesting. If everybody was the same, then everybody needs to constantly travel, which we do now, today, and we are never fulfilled. Because what is really very intriguing is the people on the edge, the neurodivergent people and the thing. And by the way, interesting. I don’t know if you know what grandmother would say. Yeah. The neurodiverse. When we have meetings, Neurodiverse Mitzvah Laguni, I have.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:43:49]:
Or we have meetings with 40 people from all around the world. There are neurodivergent and all speak in a different language. I’ve never seen such order, such harmony. Even though it’s one person painting, the other person is doing this, this, that all weird stuff. When we did a white paper and my friend Perry who runs that and he started the octopus movement, he does white papers. I’ve never experienced. And I’m in a lot of corporate things too. And I am a political advisor, so I mean incorporating.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:44:26]:
I’ve never seen such fulfillment in co creating, collaborating and actually doing it in within time, which is, you know, we are better. When neurodivergent people work together, they are better than any system relevant because there is no system relevance. Nobody fits in. Tell me which human. I always say two questions. Which humans want war and which humans feel that they fit in? There’s no human on the world that wants to do. I know quarterbacks, I know Navy seals, I know the best of the best. Nobody ever said they fit in.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:45:11]:
Nobody said that fulfills them. They said I have to do this and have to take all that to get to this. When, when, today, when, when I, when I. When I advise somebody and they said, you know, I have a. I have a car repair shop, you know, and, and I said, and we talk about his brand and his leadership and his. And I said to him, so what really fulfills you? And he said, just to fix with the carburetor. I say, that’s like you’re saying, I’m doing shoes to make money. If you want to make money, do money, be a venture capitalist, go to banks.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:45:51]:
If it’s all about money, do that. If it’s all about carburetors, why would you do 90% of stuff that you don’t like? Just make a carburetor shop and then call it the best carburetors? Because that’s your uniqueness. If fulfillment is a feedback, feedback loop of what is your. That you’re on the right path. It’s so simple. Do you see? There’s no. I have an answer to everything because I. Human centric.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:46:18]:
No, human centricly is. I don’t know what to do legally or something, but human centricly, it is so easy. I said, I know that fulfillment is the emotional feedback loop that you are on the right. On your right path, not on mine. Because what fulfills you is different than what fulfills me. But if the guy with that workshop with the car repair shop focuses on carburetors, he will be fulfilled and probably have much more money and everybody would.

Dana Jonson [00:46:47]:
Win and probably much happier.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:46:50]:
Yes, that’s what I’m saying. If you express yourself like your daughter in the way she wants, she will learn so much from what she created. Than what people say, oh, that’s good or bad. Judgment doesn’t tell you anything. No, but if she says, I couldn’t know that came from me. When I look at my paintings or my music, like, because the ego gets out, you know, the systemic. Yes, generated ego goes out. I look afterwards and say, oh, my God, I did this.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:47:18]:
I know I did this. I can’t even believe I did this. This is so good, you know, it’s fulfilling, you know, for me. And when, when, when artists say they want to throw away something, I say, I screwed up. I went too far. You know, that, that, that theory that I just did too much. I said, don’t put it away for a month or two or a year or two years and then go back. And I’ve never heard anybody saying, because I asked them, I write them out and ask.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:47:46]:
It said, did you throw it away? No, I pulled it out and either said it’s perfect as it is or I knew I need to do a yellow dot in this corner and it made it all work. This is at the moment they experiencing the fulfillment that is in the moment. And how much is in the moment of fulfillment versus a future system relevance, a future system success. That is always a lie. Because I don’t know any politician, anybody that achieved an Oscar. Anybody. I mean, I worked with Robert Evans who did the Godfather. I lived in his house with all these stars.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:48:26]:
If you, if you. Anybody would have said it was worth it to get that it was justifying my sacrifice that I did for the. No, never. Never. It’s priceless, you being with your kids. It’s. And it’s not priceless in having a title. It is priceless to learn about humanity in your title.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:48:48]:
But the system relevance of a title doesn’t do anything to your fulfillment.

Dana Jonson [00:48:55]:
Right, right. So what are some practical steps for parents or educators? Because our system doesn’t lean to that yet. Right. So how can parents and educators try and incorporate some of this into their world?

Michaell Magrutsche [00:49:11]:
Very simple. Again, the simplest thing they get. It’s not hard. When you look in the context, see the guy with the repair station looked in the context that he says I love carburetors but I won’t get enough money. So his context was money. He could have repaired the carburetors at home. But. But I’m just saying.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:49:32]:
Yep.

Dana Jonson [00:49:33]:
Right, right.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:49:34]:
How we get get distorted when you say when you are aware. Just listen to this episode a couple of times. You know, you get everything because we packed so much in there now. I couldn’t even believe that we are able to do that. But what I would recommend to anybody, any parent understand that this what you have, your kids are like you. Like you. They’re not different. They’re like you.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:50:04]:
One of one of eight billions. And even if you have five children, if you have 10 children, they will all look differently on their experience. So the only way to make us happier, because that’s why we do. I want to be a lawyer. Then I can afford my kids.

Dana Jonson [00:50:28]:
Yeah, kids aren’t cheap.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:50:30]:
I know. So anything you do, anything you do, be in the awareness that it’s not about the money. Don’t let money dominate money. Is the system relevance. That lies to you and says you can do everything with money. You can’t. Because that’s why millionaires wouldn’t kill themselves while they would do stupid stuff. While do we leave? Because when you go on the social on an unnatural ladder.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:51:02]:
And you become the President of the United States. And you become the Oscar winner. And you become Elon Musk. And we become Jeff Bezos. Trust me, you feel the same crappy as we do. You actually feel crappier because you are fearing of losing that artificial adoration you’re so afraid to feel. You feel it because human centricly. See, I looked at it human, I didn’t look at it.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:51:30]:
Oh my God. And then everything you say, no, then I must lead the lie. So when you be aware of that. I’m not saying without system, I love systems. I’m just saying try to be a contributor to systems with your power, not with what they forced you to be. So I would say every human, every parents, I say, just always reminder yourself and your kids, you’re one of one of 8 billion. Imagine how special you are. You are one of 8 billion.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:52:05]:
You’re not like 8 billion. Especially becomes from your uniqueness. And with that uniqueness, you look at your whole life, your whole experience. Where is fulfillment? That’s all because fulfillment shows that you and the red bot have. Do you see how simple and made. You’re very complicated systemically question. Because the fulfillment I know gives you human centricly that you are on your right path. And the awareness that there is no right path.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:52:38]:
The awareness of human centric where everybody is unique and there is no right. So systems can never say, Dana, you are a woman, that’s what you have to do. That is a violation, a shaming.

Dana Jonson [00:52:52]:
And that hasn’t worked out very well.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:52:54]:
For me and everybody, everybody is motivated by shame and guilt of that system of morphication. And that’s why I say know you’re one of one. And you also your view on life is one of one. So nobody’s right, nobody’s wrong either.

Dana Jonson [00:53:11]:
It’s your perspective. You lived it.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:53:15]:
Yeah, you lived your own thing. And nobody’s wrong. And when that person needs to do a crime, I’m not saying allow it. I’m not saying embrace it. I’m saying look at that person said he. Why must he think he must commit a crime? Because system says he can’t do it another way. Because in. In humanity there’s only perfection, like in nature.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:53:41]:
And you need to say the perfection comes because we see everybody as one of one. And we can do so much fulfillment by collaborating with each other and talking to each other and expanding each other with you. And I’m doing this is the expand. That’s the end. And this is the, this, this is.

Dana Jonson [00:54:00]:
I just go do that.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:54:02]:
Prove to you my point. I prove to you my point and you experience that point, which makes your point, your existence, even more powerful.

Dana Jonson [00:54:13]:
Wonderful. Well, I have heard that money can ruin people, but I’m not going to lie, I’d be willing to give it a shot just, just putting it.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:54:20]:
No, no, I love money. Money is the, is the symptom. Success is a symptom. It’s never the cause. You know, I’m not saying anything is bad. Everything is good. I judge. Don’t judge.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:54:33]:
I’m just saying don’t be motivated by a system relevant thing like success, fame, money. Don’t be motivated to be because where’s the motivation coming from? That was great that you said that. Where’s the money? Why you motivated to, to do it. To do it for money. Why?

Dana Jonson [00:54:53]:
Yeah, I.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:54:54]:
Unfortunately, you’re not good enough, you know.

Dana Jonson [00:54:57]:
Yeah, I don’t think I’ve ever been as motivated by money as I wish I was. But yeah, you know, we can’t probably people can’t. But no, this has been wonderful, Michael, and I really appreciate your perspective and your ability to articulate it in terms of just everybody, not just students, not just children. But I do agree with you that it’s important that we get to them before they are completely programmed by society. Right.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:55:23]:
And I don’t want to pre deprogram. I don’t want to deprogram. I have no three points.

Dana Jonson [00:55:29]:
Right.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:55:30]:
The thing is we need to pull ourselves out. What are we naturally. And then say, okay, we need systems, we need to collaborate. But first we have to pull ourselves out. Whatever. Naturally. And naturally, a one on one, we are part of nature. How many kids don’t know that we are part of nature? Tell me that.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:55:53]:
Educators tell me that butter comes from the supermarket. It is produced in the supermarket.

Dana Jonson [00:56:01]:
Yeah, that’s a little scary. Well, thank you so much for joining me today. This has been really great and enlightening and I’m sure my audience will also feel the same way. For people who are listening to this and they want to find your books or find you, where do they go?

Michaell Magrutsche [00:56:17]:
Simple. Very simple. Michaelm.com Michael with two L’s M dot.

Dana Jonson [00:56:22]:
Com Michael with two L’s M dot com yeah, excellent. And I’m going to have that on my show notes too. So if you’re in the car or doing something else and you can’t write it down right now, just go back and read the show notes and they will be there. Thank you. Oh, yes.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:56:37]:
There’s something. There’s a free. If you like what you and I just danced to. There’s. My podcast is 30 seconds simple. 30 seconds with a question. And it helps you seeing your number one superpower, creativity. We can solve everything with your uniqueness.

Dana Jonson [00:56:56]:
Excellent.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:56:57]:
It’s called the Smart of Art.

Dana Jonson [00:56:58]:
Smart of Art. That’s your podcast, right? Or one of them.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:57:01]:
Yeah. The power of art and creativity.

Dana Jonson [00:57:03]:
Smart of Art. Yes. And they’re just little clips that give you something to think about. 30 seconds to think about a question every Saturday.

Michaell Magrutsche [00:57:13]:
When you have time to contemplate Saturdays, you just. Very simple. Everything is human, centricly, very simple.

Dana Jonson [00:57:21]:
Excellent. Well, thank you so much. I appreciate you being on. Thank you so much for joining me today. Please don’t forget to follow this podcast so you don’t miss any new episodes and leave a review when you have a chance. If there’s anything you want to hear about or comment on, please go to my Facebook page, special Ed on Special Ed, and find me there. I’ll see you next time here on Special Ed on Special Ed. Have a fabulous day.

Melody Murray [00:57:44]:
The views expressed in this episode are.

Dana Jonson [00:57:45]:
Those of the speakers at the time.

Disclaimer [00:57:46]:
Of the recording and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any other agency, organization, employer or company or even that individual today.