Amy Pleet-Odle is an inclusion coach and founder of Inclusion Focused Coaching. She brings nearly 50 years of experience in education to her coaching work. She’s been an English teacher, special educator, department chair, secondary transition coordinator, state department specialist, college professor, and parent. And in this episode she talks to me about what inclusion really is, what it should look like, and how we get there! In other words, what you need to know about inclusion! Amy Pleet-Odle can be found at: https://amypleet.com/

TRANSCRIPT (not proofread)

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

child, disability, inclusion, teachers, kids, parents, people, special ed, classroom, transition, thought, insider knowledge, class, talking, learn, adhd, defective, felt, specialist, working

SPEAKERS

Amy Pleet-Odle, Dana Jonson

Dana Jonson  00:02

Hello, and welcome to need to know with Dana Jonson. I’m your host, Dana Jonson and I’m here to give you the information you need to know to best advocate for your child. I’m a special education attorney in private practice, a former special education teacher and administrator, a current mom to four children with IPS and I myself have ADHD and dyslexia. So I have approached the world of disability and special education from many angles. And I’ll provide straightforward information about your rights and your school’s obligations, information from other professionals on many topics, as well as tips and tricks for working with your school district. My goal is to empower you through your journey. So if there’s anything you want to hear, comment on, join our Facebook group, it’s aptly named need to know with Dana Jonson, or you can email me at Dana at special ed dot life. Okay, let’s get started. Today we’re meeting with Amy pleat odle and inclusion coach. And I would refer to as an inclusion specialist. But that’s just me. And she is the founder of inclusion focused coaching. And in case you haven’t guessed yet, I have her here to discuss inclusion. And inclusion is a big word that we hear tossed around a lot. And I wanted to spend some time with you, Amy to talk about what is it? What does it mean? Why do we want it? And how do we get it? So the first thing I want to ask you is why am I asking you about inclusion? My understanding is that this is your 50th year of teaching, correct?

Amy Pleet-Odle  01:43

Yes,

Dana Jonson  01:43

I’m finishing up year number 50. That is fantastic. So why don’t you tell us about your 50 year journey that brought you to tell us about inclusion?

Amy Pleet-Odle  01:54

Well, we could spend this whole podcast talking about the experiences I’ve had over 50 years, as you can imagine, but I’ll try and condense it. I started as an English teacher, back in the miniskirt, and high heels and ponytail days. And there was no special ed law. So all of those kids were in my class all the time without labels. And they you know, they were learning at all different rates and all different abilities. I went to my department chair and I said some of my kids are really learning well, and some kids aren’t. And he said to me, look, some kids just won’t learn, teach the ones that can learn. And don’t worry about the rest.

Dana Jonson  02:36

They won’t learn. Okay, so if you’re listening this podcast, you can’t see the shocking on my face. They won’t learn. They

Amy Pleet-Odle  02:43

just won’t like don’t don’t knock yourself out. Don’t worry about them. There’s some kids that just won’t learn. Yep, that was the common theme of I was that was what, you know, it was what inclusion look like back then. The things have changed a bit. Well, that. Yeah. So then I remember someone coming in saying we have a new special ed law. There are going to be kids with disabilities in your classes next year. And we were all like, shocked. Who’s going to be here? Well, there were a few kids who parents had kept home because they weren’t eligible back in those days. But most of the other kids who ended up having IEP s were already there. But we were like in fear of what were these, like, I don’t know, if they were coming into the leper colonies or something we there was a lot of fear of what this would mean. But for me, I got the said there’s this new disability called Learning Disabilities. Oh, it’s new. And I went, that’s Dale. I had a kid in my seventh grade English classroom who wrote like a first grader who could not read at all. But could he watched everything on TV and he could talk about anything he had watched or read. He was the brightest kid in my class, but he couldn’t read and his writing look like first grade and I went, he has a learning disability. That’s

Dana Jonson  04:07

it. And you were excited, right? You’re like, excited.

Amy Pleet-Odle  04:11

I have to go get a degree in this. I get to figure this out. So a couple years later, I was asked to start a special ed class. For kids with disabilities. They thought across all of Baltimore County Schools, they might need a special ed middle school classroom for kids in three grades. And I would teach them older subjects. There might be one class I taught English, math, social studies, science, and study skills. Remember, I’m certified in English. So

Dana Jonson  04:43

yeah, yeah.

Amy Pleet-Odle  04:45

Yeah. So that was interesting. And I had kids that three grade level so I thought individualized, I’ve got to teach world history and US history and world cultures. And three Three years of math, and three curriculums of English. It was like nuts. Every kid was on his own self pace. And the class grew as IEP meetings happened, the class grew. I had a paraprofessional, who was the most wonderful woman and the two of us were in this room by ourselves, figuring it out

Dana Jonson  05:23

that you’re in your own classroom. So this would have been what we would consider now a substantially separate classroom. Oh, yes. Yeah. Okay. So that was, I was still when

Amy Pleet-Odle  05:32

that those kids couldn’t be in a regular class. Now, never.

Dana Jonson  05:37

I remember those classes in our school, too. We had names for them, you know? Yes. You know, that’s where those kids went to learn.

Amy Pleet-Odle  05:44

But let me tell you something about me. I thought I was going to cure them. They’re going to be in my classroom. And I’m a good teacher, by the end of this year, I will have them overcome their disability, see that medical model of I can fix them, I really was committed, and I thought it was going to happen. That’s interesting. I hadn’t thought of it that way. But you’re right, that was a mentality, which was,

Dana Jonson  06:11

we can

Amy Pleet-Odle  06:12

fix it, right. It’s something that needs to be fixed, and make it go away. And I reassured the parents, and I reassure the kids, I know you failed a whole lot in the past. But don’t worry, you have me now, you won’t ever fail again, I will protect you, I will set it up so that you will be successful. And I worked so many hours above and beyond. And yeah, I didn’t have a family yet. So this was my whole life.

Dana Jonson  06:41

It’s funny you say that, because it just reminded me my daughter was in a classroom where the teacher felt the same way. Now this is in today’s time. So it was a Catholic school. So the Catholic schools are a little antiquated in their teaching methodologies, if you ask me, but she was there. And the teacher felt the same way that like she could fix this thing. Now, my daughter was the only kid in the class she felt that way about so she put all this energy into my daughter, my daughter had a great year. But we knew that wasn’t sustainable. And thank God, she was the only kid in that class who needed that level of support, or this poor woman would have just fallen apart. I can’t even imagine how you would have done that with a whole classroom full of kids. Like I’m teaching five subjects. Yes. And, and multiple grades. If

Amy Pleet-Odle  07:25

I go back, and I go, Oh, my, how did I do that. But I loved it. It was all my creativity. It was all my prop. There were there were no curriculum guides. There were curriculum guides for the general ed teachers, either they were making up their own curriculum. So but I got to design and create and the creative, like, I guess, when somebody does a great work of art, the satisfaction of they’ve created it, I was having that every moment of every day. And I was gonna figure it out. I knew that I could do this. I would love to have teachers have that feeling. Yes.

Dana Jonson  08:02

Well, and that’s what’s missing is education in general. I remember that when I was teaching to that I had a lot more freedom and autonomy than the regular ed teachers. But it wasn’t necessarily a good thing. How long before you burned out on that? I mean, how can you maintain that classroom? Right? So how did you go from there,

Amy Pleet-Odle  08:20

I got married and my stepchildren moved in. And then I had a baby. And I went, I can’t, I had moved up to where I was a high school department chair. And I managed the whole department and I was running IEP meetings. And I was still we still were somewhat in that mode, although we’ve moved more into inclusion, but we still thought we were gonna, you know, the parents were, well, how many more years till he’s two you have this reading disability fixed? I mean, you’re still he doesn’t have Attention Deficit anymore. You know, like, how are we doing on making progress on curing them, there was still that mindset, but I realized I could not do this and suddenly be a mother of three. So I was offered a position I took it as a transition specialist listening they might not know what transition special Okay, so explaining session specialist was still is somebody who works with kids to help them transition from school to adult life. And the special ed law now requires that it be part of a transition plan at age 16. Some states say 14 and that part of the state prepare kids for what’s after high school and they’ll and

Dana Jonson  09:36

vocational so whether the child is going to college or a training school or a trade school or work, or whatever it is they’re going to your IEP is to prepare you for that have any level of disability at any level of functioning, your IP has to have a section in it at a minimum starting at 16. But sometimes sooner and I have a whole other podcast on transition that someone can listen to. But it’s really always want people to know that that transition because we people talk about transitioning from middle school to high school. No transition is when you are finished with your high school education, what’s next? and pay for it? So okay, so you became a transition specialist.

Amy Pleet-Odle  10:19

And it also includes community participation. Yeah, call it independent living now, but they’re talking about when they reauthorized, change that word to community participation, which would be really great. Because Independent Living just sounds like where they’re going to live. Yes. Oh, you’re right. More than that. So I was that in a in the school district, and I helped kids decide, did they want to go to a vocational school or trade school? Did they want to, you know, what was next for them, I linked them with the disability services in higher ed, if they knew they wanted to go to college, and over, and I would supervise them out on job sites. And what I discovered over and over is these kids were not prepared to talk about their disability or what they needed. So if an employer said, Well, we give accommodations here, what do you need? Or if the person in the Disability Service Office at the college says, what kind of accommodations were you need your classes? The kids say? I don’t know. And they said, Well, you have a disability, right? And I’m sitting right next to them. You have a disability, right? And they go, No, I don’t think I have a disability. But they had a nine p since fourth grade. They didn’t know they had a disability. And they were like, embarrassed that people were even talking about it. yet. They’re all these rights, that they have to advocate for themselves. Mom can advocate for them. I can’t advocate for them. They have to advocate for themselves. And they have to know what they’re talking about. And I went, Oh my gosh, all those years, I was in the classroom with these kids. And I never told them. I never prepared them. So I would wanted to go back and be a teacher all over again. Because this isn’t a one time conversation at the IEP meeting. This is an every day, what accommodation works for you did that accommodation work? What can I do to support you? So the kids learn to advocate?

Dana Jonson  12:10

Right? And I mean, think about it, your classroom was substantially separate, right? You weren’t keeping it a secret society wise, we were keeping it a secret. Even as recently as when my daughter was growing up. Somebody said to me when she was in third grade, and she’s like, I have ADHD and dyslexia. She’s all excited. She figured out why school was hard for her and someone came to me, I was like, are we talking about that now? Is that something we need to lead with? And I thought, Wow, what an interesting perspective. It’s just part of her life. And she was excited to learn something and she’s sharing it. You know, and I love that perspective. But that wasn’t always the perspective mean, the perspective is very, if you have a disability, you keep it to yourself, you figure out how to accommodate yourself. And you don’t tell anybody, you know, and it’s

Amy Pleet-Odle  12:50

actually worse than what you’re saying, Dana, actually, their families, and I hear this more from families. But I hear from teachers, too. Let’s not tell her, let’s not tell him. Let’s keep it as the big secret. I was part of a research study where we were informing ninth graders about their disability and about their accommodations. We were working with vocational rehabilitation, and the kids at their first reaction in the ninth grade, when somebody’s telling them you have this, this kind of learning disability, you have this kind of attention deficit, whatever. The first reaction from the kids was, no, I don’t, that’s really mean, don’t say that about me. But then once they came to terms with it, their second reaction was, How come nobody told me, now I can do something about this. I just thought I was fill in the blank, I thought it was stupid. I thought I was a mess. I thought I was hopeless. I thought I would like they had some word for themselves. And there’s a process for them to learn to accept it. As I said, it’s not a one time conversation at an IEP meeting with all those adults staring at them.

Dana Jonson  14:00

Right. And and I think that’s a good point. Because it’s also not just about knowing you have ADHD, ADHD impacts different people in different ways. And so just acknowledging that you have it is part of it. But if you don’t understand what it means, and how it impacts different people, and how it impacts you, specifically, you’re not doing anything about it. So that’s only step one, saying the word out loud, whatever it is, is only step one, right and simple steps for understanding and comprehending your own disability. And I think, you know, we’ll get to more of the inclusion piece in a minute, but I think it’s critical for other people to get it too because, you know, the number of times and using ADHD as the as the example feels like, oh, I’ve got all those symptoms too. You might most people do, but do you have them to the degree that so I think that there’s also an issue with our society around us not understanding the disabilities or how they truly impact people and it makes it even harder. For those who have it to be outspoken about it,

Amy Pleet-Odle  15:03

right? And it’s not like this banner, you can wave, oh, forgive me because I have ADHD, you know, like, no, it’s not an excuse. Now, okay, I need glasses, I need to put my glasses on in the morning, if I want to read, if I want to not stumble down the stairs, it’s not up to my mommy to tell me to put my glasses on. And it’s not up to my teacher to tell me to put my glasses on, I need to manage, putting on my glasses, because this is what I need, I need to remember where I put them, I need to keep them clean, and I need to use my glasses. Okay. And you know what, that’s normal, how many zillion people across the planet need glasses, and they manage it. So same thing with attention deficit, if I have a particular type of attention deficit, and impacts my learning in this kind of circumstance, in this way, I need to know what that is. And I need to be able to ask for the help I need. Whether I’m in a middle school classroom, whether I’m on a college campus, or whether I’m out on the job, it’s up to me to manage it. It’s not up to my boss to take care of it. it’s up to me to manage it. And I may need to ask for things. And there are lots of protections. But if I don’t, if I’ve never heard that I have it, and I never learned to take care of it. And it doesn’t mean that I’m defective. And I have to be fixed. It’s just part of me,

Dana Jonson  16:27

right? It’s just a fact. Yeah. The thing I hear sometimes when teenagers say things like, oh, why does that kid get extra time and I would do better if I had extra time. And I say well, then if you would truly do better, if you had extra time, you might have a learning disability. That’s That’s okay. Not to mention the fact that the studies indicates that you won’t do better if you don’t have a learning disability. But that’s a different conversation. But it’s interesting to see I have four children with disabilities, all different categories of disabilities. And it is interesting to see that journey in them understanding and the different children with their different personalities and what it is taking to get them to internalize and understand that disability. But once they do I watch it, I can see how understanding the disability helps them so tremendously get through the day.

Amy Pleet-Odle  17:12

It puts them in the driver’s seat.

Dana Jonson  17:14

Yes, it puts them in the driver’s seat. I like that. Yes,

Amy Pleet-Odle  17:17

yep. So let me fast forward through my career. So I was a transition specialist working with the school district working directly with kids and families and teachers. And then I became the transition specialist for the state of Maryland. And I was in the middle of working on my doctorate in secondary special ed systems change. And the special ed law was reauthorized and suddenly transition is now required in the IEP. I’ve been in that seat for three months. And every all the leaders across the state of Maryland called me and said, so what should we do now that it’s part of this special ed law? What do we have to do with transition? And I’m like, Oh, my gosh, I don’t know. But luckily, the US office of special ed programs pulled together every state transition specialist and all the top researchers and we had a think tank, and we got to design together. There’s so much I learned from people and and we kept looking at things like how do we help kids advocate for themselves? If they’re going to transition? How do we help employers make those accommodations and not you know, have be prejudiced? What do we have to do to increase student’s post school outcomes? And what what a journey, what an opportunity to learn. And so that was amazing, I left that position. And I went to university testing University in Maryland, I was hired to create to develop the master’s program in special ed. But given all of my experiences, I went, Okay, every course is going to have something about transition, every course is going to have something about self determination. And because both my children had IEPs, by now got to sit in the parents seat of the IEP meeting, and I had to choose, I know what it’s like to be the professional at this IEP meeting, I know how to run the meeting, I now to be the transition specialist. I don’t like how it feels to be the parent in the parent seat. They expected me to know less and don’t don’t know too much. And I actually had a guidance counselor who said to me, I resent that you’re using insider knowledge to get something for your daughter that most parents don’t know exists.

Dana Jonson  19:33

insider knowledge, insider knowledge.

Amy Pleet-Odle  19:36

She actually said that to me. And my first response was first shock and horror that I had broken the rules. Oh my gosh, you know, like I’ve broken the rules. I’m not supposed to use insider knowledge for my daughter. But then I got thinking about it. And I thought that comment is brilliant. Because there is insider knowledge. There’s stuff we’re not supposed to tell parents. Because it costs more money, there’s things we’ll let parents know things we won’t let parents know. And like, don’t, you know, don’t make them an informed parent, they might be too dangerous. I might like, why is this? Aren’t we all working on the same team? Aren’t we all working for the best for this child? Why is a professional? Do I tell a parent? Here’s what you should ask for. But don’t tell anybody. I told you. What, why? Why am I doing that? What is this insider knowledge?

Dana Jonson  20:31

Well, that’s it’s funny when I was teaching, I mean, years ago, and a parent came in actually, I think it was an administrative position at this point. And they came in with their letter, and they and they had printed up the ID EA from the internet. And somebody said to me, they’re like, Oh, great. Now the parents can access the law.

20:49

And why is that?

Dana Jonson  20:52

a bad thing. I would actually, as an administrator, I would prefer more parents knew exactly what was going on. I felt like it would make my life easier. That was just my, that’s maybe I’m the only person who felt that way. But I couldn’t believe that. Oh, great. Now there’s an internet and parents are gonna start printing up the law and telling us they know what it means? Well,

Amy Pleet-Odle  21:13

so what you’re pointing at is something became a passion for me. Like, why are there two sides of the table? Why is it adversarial? Why are there secrets? Why are we Why are we this is a dangerous parent, they’re bringing an attorney to the table. So we have to get our ducks in a row before we start talking to these parents. So I became fascinated with the parent piece.

Dana Jonson  21:36

Shouldn’t your ducks already be in a row?

Amy Pleet-Odle  21:38

Yeah, well, and they’re not. Let’s tell the parents, I’ve never dealt with a child like yours. Our ducks aren’t in a row. We don’t know what we’re doing. Will you work with us? So we can do the best we can for your child? Like, you don’t have to be perfect. We’re humans. Yeah. And, like, Why? Why do we have? Why are we so afraid? And why is this, you know, like, sort of a competition or something. So I wrote a book on how to build partnerships with families, that the council for Exceptional Children sells. And I don’t get any of the Commission on that. That was a mistake. But anyway. So when I’m designing these courses, Family Partnership is right there in every one of the courses and youth empowerment and preparing for transition and all that, as a professor, and the director of the special ed graduate program, I interviewed every teacher, and I asked them, tell me why you want to be a special ed teacher, or why you wanted advanced, special integrate. And every one of them had a personal story of how the satisfaction of making a difference in the life of somebody, my little brother, you know, my there was this kid in a class that I taught, or when I was a student, I got to be the, you know, companion to, they all had a story. And they all had a longing to make a difference in the life of kids. And I believe every special educator, actually, I believe every teacher has that longing to make a difference. And I think our system right now is not letting that that joy that I talked about before. Yeah, I don’t see that flourishing. And so this is this is why I’m still 50 years going because I want that only teachers to have that joy. Every state says there is a shortage of special ed teachers. Yeah, but

Dana Jonson  23:36

Astor’s, I was in Massachusetts, and they were recruiting from California, you know, they were coming to say, Oh, you’ve got your master’s in special ed, we need help. And I mean, you know, there is not a shortage for special ed teachers, there might be a shortage of good ones, sometimes. But I think a lot of that is our, you know, teacher’s hands are tied in a lot of ways that the intent was well meaning. But the practical reality of it isn’t working.

Amy Pleet-Odle  24:05

Right. And I got to see that at the next stage of my career. So after I retired with from being at my first retirement from being the director of the special ed program, then I went to University of Delaware, I was hired as an inclusion consultant that can inclusion specialist, and I was helping with schools all over the state. So I’m back in schools now. And I’m watching teachers, special ed teachers, general ed teachers, co teaching inclusion practices, and I’m going wow, these teachers know things that the system doesn’t let them do. These teachers have their hands so tied all of the curricular responsibilities and pacing guides, and yes, there’s no child left behind and Every Student Succeeds Act but something’s missing. This isn’t inclusion the way inclusion could be. So I left that in formed my own company inclusion focused coaching. And I started working with some of those schools and other school districts, I developed video series of practical, here’s some strategies. And here’s a way to think and here’s how to integrate self determination and student ownership of their own learning and family partnership. And then teachers have like this little online guide that they practice. And they reflect, and then I’ve trained inclusion coaches to go into the schools and work with schools. So all that was in place when COVID hit. And so a lot of schools are saying, we’re just trying to get teachers to survive this part, we’re not going to do professional development, I totally understand that. Take me time to spend in my garden to reflect is this working? Are my do modules and the reflection guides? Are they working? They gave teachers what to do, but did they give teachers the thinking behind it? What does inclusion really mean? So this is this is what I’ve been thinking while I’m out playing in my garden.

Dana Jonson  26:11

They’re just your thoughts on the weekend? Well, yeah. And it’s it goes back to what you’re saying about kids understanding their disabilities, right? You can tell a child you have ADHD. And you can say, so you need extra time. So they can walk around and say, Well, I’m going to need extra time on this assignment, or I’m in need extra time, if they don’t understand why they need the extra time, if they don’t understand the mechanics of what’s going on behind the accommodation, they’re not going to fully advocate for themselves properly. Right. So it’s sort of the same thing you’re saying about the teachers, you can tell the teacher, this is how we do inclusion. But if they don’t understand your steps, and the meaning behind those actions, you’re not going to get a real inclusion model. And that that was what I worked in, I went to a school as an Edison school at the time. And Edison was some company that was creating all these inclusion schools, and it was supposed to be full inclusion. And I got there, and they were not following any of the special ed laws. So that was problematic in this effort to be in inclusion. And they, you know, the teachers were told what to do, but weren’t understanding the concepts. So it was working. Because if something went off script, they didn’t understand how to handle it, because they hadn’t been told that action, right? wasn’t working, because it wasn’t just about buying everyone bought in everyone within that school because they wanted inclusion. But no one knew what it was really?

Amy Pleet-Odle  27:40

Yes. Yes, it’s not about where the child is sitting. And it’s not about the service the teacher gives. It’s about. It’s about how it’s about the experience of belonging. So let me let me tell you about an activity that I gave to my grad students in this kind of I tried, I asked them, What does inclusion mean? And they were like, No, no, no. So it was the beginning class of the advanced course in special ed, for people that wanted an advanced Master’s in special ed. And it was fall, and I said, on the way to class next week, bring three leaves three leaves that look different. And they said, what kind of leaves us Oh, I don’t care, pick any kind of leaves, sign them off the ground, pick them off the tree, it’s fall live there, lots of leaves, just bring three different leaves. So they all came and they what do we do with these leave? Put them all here in the center of the table? Let’s stand around the table. And then so there and I’m looking, they’re all different colors are all different sizes, all different shapes. And, and I said, right, let’s sort these leaves. And the teacher said, What do you mean, what are the categories? I go, I don’t know, make it up. And they went, we can make up our own categories. And I said, Yeah, so somebody said, Well, how about colors? So they put all the orange here and the green here and the you know, the brown ones here? And then once the word and they said, what should we do with the ones that are two colors? I said, I don’t know, you’re making it up. So they sorted and they put them like, there’s the halfway in between? And then they have the, you know, the really green and the almost mostly green and the orange. And what do we do about that? Once it is fine, you know? So anyway, so they sorted them, and they had quite a conversation about the categories and the rules for sorting. I said, Okay, now let’s put them all back in the center. Let’s find another way. And they said, All right, how about the ones that have points? Are they pointing do they and how many points do they have? And they sorted them that way? And where do they do if it’s a broken point, you know, this is still belong here. And if the point is missing everything, and then I said, Okay, now, let’s pull out all the defective leaves. And they What do you mean defective? Is that I don’t know. What do I mean by defective? So they said, Well, how about the ones that have like they’re all brown and broken on the corners, so Okay, so they pulled them So we’ll put all the defective in this one spot. Well, what about the ones that have insect bites and holes? Okay, should they? I don’t know, you decide. And so they made up these criteria. And I said, this pile here, and they it’s like, is this one defective enough to be in the defective pile? You know, they had those kind of like, nuances of how bad does it have to be to be effective? Right? Is it? Okay? These are the special ed kids. And they looked at me, and they just, you could just see the wheels turning. Yeah. He said, The special like kids, and I said, Well, some of these we couldn’t decide if they were special or not. We had quite a conversation. And some of them were clearly special ed. So what are our expectations for the ones that are in this pile? What? Should we get out the tape and fix them? You know, like, Is it the mouse mean? What does it mean? A conversation of where did the special terms come from? And these are, like, cavemen didn’t have terms like this, over time, come up with definitions. And then we have expectations. And we talked about, well, the kid has this IQ, then we know that they’re going to plateau at this level, or somebody has attention deficit, we know they’re not going to be able to do X, right. And so sometimes we talk about kids being overachievers, because they’ve gone past their plateau that we know they can be arbitrarily

Dana Jonson  31:33

Drew, by the way, that we did that, okay, because you have ADHD, you clearly can’t do this. And then when the kid does it, we’re all in shock. And all

Amy Pleet-Odle  31:42

of that was a mistake, or maybe we diagnose them wrong, or maybe yes. Okay, so all of this is what we make up. But let’s go back to what inclusion means. So we have a student sitting in a classroom, is there anybody in that classroom that thinks that child has this feeling of plateau? Or does that child go like, I’m sitting in that seat, I wear my glasses, nobody says, Oh, she has glasses, so therefore, we’re going to limit her dreams. Therefore, we’re going to limit the expectations, therefore, we have to give her this extra, or we’re saying she just needs to have her glasses, Oh, she dropped her glasses. And when you take on the corner of them, or you know, but no big deal, she can still do as well as everybody else, she can still achieve her full potential. And every kid’s potential is different today than it was yesterday. IQ scores are not a prediction of the future. If ever, unless everything stays status quo, we’re not impacting this child at all, the net child’s IQ will stay exactly the way it is.

Dana Jonson  32:51

and I quote, Todd rose a lot. He talks about the jagged profile. And one of the examples he gives is that picture of two people with 103, IQ, the identical number, and then you look at where their scores were. And these two people are nothing alike. They have vastly different strengths and weaknesses. But they have that one, same number. So we’re going to categorize them as capable to a certain level, despite the fact that all there’s nothing these two bodies have in common, but that one number. And we think that that one number is what we’re teaching to.

Amy Pleet-Odle  33:28

So we’re you’re talking about the intellectual and the cognitive ability, but then there’s all the emotional, like mom and dad fought this morning, I’m not going to be as capable of learning anything today. Or, you know, I’m homeless right now, I don’t know where I’m sleeping tonight. Or there’s so many factors that influence a child’s learning that are not just on an IQ test. yes, no, or my mom gave me the best present this morning, she fixed me a hard boiled egg, and I have my brand new lunchbox, and I’m going to be so amazing in class today. And, you know, it’s a different, it’s a different world for every child every day. And if teachers can have the joy of discovering and prompting and helping that child’s little flame burst into full, you know, instead of just a little pilot light, that child’s face says, I can do this. I never thought I could master that. That gives teachers joy that helps that child believe who knows what dream I can have, you know, people ask little children, what do you want to be when you grow up? And then they ask him that, you know, all the way through school, they asked him that when they’re sophomores in high school. What do you want to be when you grow up? Although they might change the words a little bit,

Dana Jonson  34:53

right? kids with disabilities don’t

Amy Pleet-Odle  34:55

often get asked that question because you have a disability. You probably Probably, you know, oh, you’re in a wheelchair, you’d probably be working on the computer.

Dana Jonson  35:04

You can’t write that expectation. You can’t make your dream because you have a deficit.

Amy Pleet-Odle  35:10

Yeah. When I was a transition coordinator, there was a, an attractive, adorable young woman who was a junior in high school, who had cerebral palsy. And her speech was difficult to understand her gait was very awkward. She used a walker to go, and she often would fall. And I was her transition coordinator. And the team asked me told me, Look, she wrote on her survey that she wants to be a Hollywood movie producer, would you talk to her and tell her that’s not realistic? And I said, How do you know it’s not realistic? And they said, well, nobody’s gonna be able to understand her. And me, she was taking advanced algebra and had the highest grade in the class yet, um, several people on the team said, Who’s going to break the news to her that that’s not a realistic dream? So, you know, like, Why, what, what is this? What is this? It’s sorting leaves at why have we sorted leaves and and believe that some kids are this way or that way? So, so I’m still going strong after 50 years, I think there’s a possibility for inclusion while we have we’re resetting schools. Yes, all things are going to be a little different.

Dana Jonson  36:29

We just hit the reset button. And and I think, you know, I love the way you talk about inclusion, because so often we talk about, well, you know, children with disabilities benefit from being around children who don’t have them or children who don’t have them benefit from being around children who do. And both of those are absolutely true. But what I love about your angle is inclusion isn’t just about making them feel good. Inclusion is about they deserve to be there. Yes, it deserve that opportunity. So it’s not saying, Okay, well, you have to have the person in all these classes just physically be there, right. It’s about the person being included in their community. It’s about having a meaningful role in participation,

Amy Pleet-Odle  37:13

what I agree with what you said, there’s a danger that people will hear what you said as like, waving the banner of my rights. Rather than rights. It’s, it’s like, I’m breathing, my heart is beating, I have dreams, I belong in the human race. And I shouldn’t have to wave a banner to be part of the human race. And to be part of a classroom, I should belong. And like all the other kids, every kid is a little bit different. Every leaf is a little bit different. And whether you call it perfect or not perfect or defective, or or, you know, like that, that leaf, you walk through the woods, and you kick up the fallen leaves. And you don’t you just enjoyed the whole experience of every leaf, the tears, part of my experience, every kid is part of the experience of classrooms. It’s all of the the non, all of the typical peers, we call it, you know, if all of them know that every kid belongs, then one day those kids will be the employers that hire any kid, any other adult, and they don’t say, Oh, those are the kids that we had to make exceptions for.

Dana Jonson  38:32

Right? It belongs. And if that doesn’t, right, you know, I’ve also seen where some children in schools, they think they’re doing inclusion, but really, there’s a child with severe disabilities. And they’re kind of being taught treated like the class pet. And that’s different than inclusion. So that’s what I mean by it’s not just about physically being there. Yes. An entire mindset. Yeah. And you’re right, we just hit the reset button on education. And we are hitting the reset button, on our mindsets on so many things right now. I mean, it’s not just about education, we have, you know, racial upheaval, we have lots of stuff going on in our world right now that I think everyone is hitting a reset button on their mindset for a lot of things. And I think we’re gonna hit that reset, or we just did hit that reset button on education. And so this is a great, great time. So where does inclusion focused coaching

Amy Pleet-Odle  39:29

minute, do all of this? Why do we? Yes, so I still have my packages and schools or you know, our licensing my year one package, I have a year two package, I’m working on what’s going to be in your three package. But I also want to find people who see what I see about inclusion. And so I’m forming a mastermind community that I’m calling included by design, mastermind community and If I want to help other people figure out how we can do this what what I envision is possible? How do we have an inclusion experience for all of the children and all of the teachers in a way that we’re all empowered? And we all have that satisfaction that we’re, you know, we’re treating each other with respect. And I’m glad you said what you said about the racial issue, because everything that I said about disabilities applies to Yes, any any demographic characteristic, everybody should belong, because we’re all human beings, and we all at PARC, Eden, etc.

Dana Jonson  40:36

Yes,

Amy Pleet-Odle  40:37

so this mastermind community, I’m pulling together a small group of people who really want to help design, not like, we’re going to come up with a blueprint that we all will use, but that we’re going to come up with ideas that everybody will go back and use in their own little corner of the world, in their own classroom, or their own school, or their own community organization, or wherever. So that’s what’s next for me to pull together a group of a mastermind community.

Dana Jonson  41:07

Yeah, I think that’s the only way we’re going to get there. Right. And, and bringing, you know, bringing people into the circle. And, and when you talk about insider knowledge, I think what you’re trying to do is break that barrier between the insiders and the outsiders. Yes, and let’s bring everybody into this community, and recognize that we’re all part of it. Parents and teachers, and, you know, some parents are experts, some teachers are not, you know, it just, sometimes that’s how it goes. But we’re all part of this community. And it’s, it’s more like a global community and our, our educational systems where it starts, that’s where children learn how to be citizens of our world, right?

Amy Pleet-Odle  41:47

I start with the belief that every person is doing the best they can with what they know. So the teachers who are not expert on your child, they’re still doing the best they can with what they know, they don’t know what to do. And sometimes they love it, because teachers are supposed to know. And if we could just relax and say it’s okay to not know everything and their parents. I mean, when I found out about my child’s disability, I didn’t know how to be a parent to a child with that kind of a disability. I didn’t, but I didn’t know my child. And so I was doing the best I can, could the moment and I’m still doing the best I can, you know, but can I do better probably, if I learn more if I develop more skills, if I link with some more people. So instead of assuming that this person is trying to be a barrier to me, that person is trying to do the best he can,

Dana Jonson  42:42

or she cannot. And so you know, developing those partnerships, what is education going to look like? What Where are we headed?

Amy Pleet-Odle  42:49

Yummy? Ray, I love that question. Question. It’s an opportunity for us to really design, let’s throw out the stuff that is tying our hands. And let’s bring the human part, the relationship that connections, the belief in each other that Yeah, yeah,

Dana Jonson  43:12

no, it’s so true. What do you think about right now specific to COVID, and only some kids are going back and we don’t know how long this will last? And there’s definitely going to be a distance component to our education moving forward no matter what that’s that I think that’s here to stay. So how do we address or are you planning to investigate and address? How do we include kids who can’t go into the building? How do we include kids who may be medically fragile and have to stay home and be on the video? do you envision that as part of, of what you’re, what you’re looking into and what you’re investigating? And all of that?

Amy Pleet-Odle  43:51

I have a couple of quick answers. I could say in answer to those questions, those, look those questions. What’s more valuable is to keep them as open ended questions? If we grab a quick answer to that question, then we think we’ve solved it. And I think these are questions that need to be an open ended exploring. The possibilities are opening up right now. We have an opportunity to invent and create but I think it has to start with what do we really mean by included if it doesn’t mean sitting, having a chair in the room? Because you’re right with it’s online versus You know, there’s where’s the chair like it’s not it’s not about the seat? It’s about the mindset, but it’s not even about the mindset, it’s about the heart. I don’t know what word we don’t have words for this yet. And that’s what I want to engage my mastermind Can you what words do we use for what we really would like to see what does it really mean to be included? And then once we know that, keeping the definition open so it can grow and expand and involve, then, how do we address online remote learning? How do we address a few kids being in person and other kids being on remote? And some kids doing some things at home? And? And how do we have kids be at the mercy of their learning? If you still have kids depended on the teacher saying, Now do this assignment now do this assignment now do this assignment, then this online learning is not going to work very well, because kids have other options at home besides doing the assignment that teachers not looking at them. And mom and dad can’t suddenly become a teacher. They have other things they’re juggling. Yeah. parents to be the teacher. I’m a,

Dana Jonson  45:43

I’m a former special ed teacher, I have a master’s in education. I have no business teaching my kids anything right now. So I have no idea how parents who are not accustomed to this in any way, are handling it.

Amy Pleet-Odle  45:57

Right. You know, we need to partner with families in a new way. Like we are not we are allies. Yeah, we were allies. We are working together to help your child develop and grow, and not just with academics, develop and grow on self sufficiency, develop and grow on becoming an expert learner, develop and grow in peer relations? How are we going to do that? If it’s part online and part in person, we’re all online? How do we still develop peer relations and having kids encourage each other and accept each other? So these are big questions. And I could give you a quick short answer, but that would be so inefficient, and the the exploring and the thinking and, and kind of the inquiry is so much more valuable. And everything you’ve said is so powerful. And I hope that people listening to this are able to internalize it, because it is

Dana Jonson  46:55

really, you’re really talking about inclusion, you’re not talking about inclusion in a classroom, you’re talking about inclusion in life. And and we start in the classroom. No, that’s what we’re talking about. And that’s the goal. So if a parent or school is listening to this and saying, that’s what I need, that’s what I want for my child, or that’s what I want for my students. How do they get there? How do they find you or find what they need to get what they need to get there?

Amy Pleet-Odle  47:25

Well, I have some advice for a parent. Okay. And then I could give my contact information. Yes, the website, I can tell you about that.

Dana Jonson  47:34

So put all of that information and everything we reference will be in our show notes. So anybody listening to this can go back to the show notes. And okay, and Amy’s information and the book that she wrote and all that good stuff.

Amy Pleet-Odle  47:46

So here’s something that I that I was thinking about, because I knew you were going to ask me what advice would I give to parents and I thought about something that’s kind of poetic that I’m going to write my next blog about. So thank you for that inspiration.

Dana Jonson  48:00

Okay, great.

Amy Pleet-Odle  48:01

I’m calling it dressed down emotions. Families, trust your body. And it starts with trust your eyes, watch your children. Are they developing normally? How are they doing? How are they fitting in? Are they being accepted by peers and adults. So trust what your eyes see. Second, trust your heart. Embrace the love you have for your child. Know that you’re the only you whether your mother, father, sister, brother, grandparent, step, parent foster parent, where you’re the only you in that child’s life. Know that you your heart loves them in the way only you can love them, and nobody else will love them like that. So pay attention to your heart instincts. Trust your hands. Reach out to everybody that you can reach out to build a network of support for you and your child. Include professional and personal contacts. It’s not easy to parent, especially if your child has special needs. So use those hands to reach out and build that network. Trust your ears. When you are around your network. Listen, listen to family members, listen to your personal friends, listen to professionals. Know that they don’t know your child like you do, but they have their own view their own expertise. So listen to what they say and listen to where they’re coming from. Then trust your gut. You know, that primitive instinct that helps us all survive? Pay attention to what your gut tells you? Does it resonate with your heart message? Are you hearing and seeing things that feel right on? If you feel uncomfortable? Is it because your gut is telling you this professional is wrong? Or this friend is wrong? Or because you’re hearing something you don’t want to believe but at some level you know is right Hmm. Pay attention. What your gut is telling you pay attention, but don’t necessarily act on it right away. Think for it, think about it for a minute. And then trust your brain use that good brain that you’ve got to research to process everything, to talk out decisions, and to create an action plan. And then finally, trust your feet, trust your feet to take a stand. This is my child, this is what’s needed. Or take your trust your feet to get in motion, walk away from negative influences, walk toward people who are more supportive. So the bottom line families trust your body.

Dana Jonson  50:40

I love it. I love it. I always tell parents to trust their gut. But you’re absolutely right. And and it’s it’s true. Parents are the only ones who know their children the way they do. And, and they need to surround themselves with positive influences and positive supports, and their child as well. And hopefully, with all of your training and your mastermind community, we are going to move towards a more inclusive world. So I thank you so much for joining me, and I appreciate your work and your insight. So much. Why don’t you give us your contact information or your website name, and I will put it all in the show notes. But anyone to reach out to Amy, I will also list her books. She’s got some great books to check out too. So what’s your website?

Amy Pleet-Odle  51:29

It’s very simple a replete.com. So that

Dana Jonson  51:36

PL e t.com. There we go. Thank you so much for joining me today. You’re

Amy Pleet-Odle  51:42

welcome. Powerful. Thank you, Dana. And I can tell you that I feel affirmed and encouraged from this interview. Thank you for the encouragement because sometimes it feels a little lonely to be to see what I see and to how am I going to rally people to see this? And not everybody sees it?

Dana Jonson  52:02

Yeah, it’s a little overwhelming to, you know, see a sea of people who don’t understand that. And and even when they’re well meaning, yes. So we get that training out there. And we need to get that information out there. And we need to hit the reset button on our mindsets and in our classrooms.

Amy Pleet-Odle  52:21

Yes. Thank you. It’s been a pleasure.

Dana Jonson  52:25

Thank you so much for joining me today. Please don’t forget to subscribe to this podcast so that you get notifications when new episodes come out. And I want to know what you want to know. So join our Facebook group also named need to know with Dana Jonson or you can email me Dana at special ed dot life. But definitely reach out with your comments and questions and I’ll see you next time here on need to know with Dana Jonson have a fabulous day