Today I’m speaking with John Flanders, a special education attorney and former Executive Director of Connecticut Parent Advocacy Center (CPAC), about why learning how to properly advocate for your child is so important. We talk about the importance of understanding not just your child’s disability but the special education process and law! John tells us where parents often get confused, take missteps, &/or go down the wrong path when advocating for their child. We also talk about how parents can educate themselves, get the best results, and know when to reach out for help. Join us!
How you can reach John:
[email protected]
860.559.4706
John mentions RESC centers, which you can find here: http://www.rescalliance.org/
Council of Parent Attorneys and Advocates: COPAA.org
TRANSCRIPT (not proofread)
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
child, parents, people, parent, learning, disabilities, attorneys, understand, connecticut, talking, important, advocate, evaluation, ppt, team, kids, person, absolutely, listening, speech
SPEAKERS
Dana Jonson, John Flanders
Dana Jonson 00:01
Okay, so today I am meeting with one of my favorite attorneys attorney john Flanders. Hi, john, thank you for joining me. Odie. Howdy, john, I wanted to have you on to talk about parents advocating, and why we as attorneys or advocates, think it’s so important for parents to really learn about their child’s disability and really understand the process. And what explain that because sometimes I find parents come to attorneys out. No, we as attorneys, parents can’t do what we do, right, because we’re attorneys. So there’s a piece of that, that they require us for. But a lot of what we do in building our cases, is advocacy. And there are a lot of people are specially advocates. And sometimes parents want us to do those pieces for them, which is fine, depending on the matter. But as a rule, parents of children with disabilities, I always say you have to become the CEO of your child’s education. You can no longer say, oh, somebody else’s got it, and walk away. That’s it’s a dangerous attitude to have. So I wanted to talk to you today a little bit about why we always say this, why are we always talking to parents? Why are we always trying to teach them new tricks and make sure they understand the process? So before we get into all of that, why don’t you tell me a little bit about your background? And why I might be asking you to tell me what I need to know about parents advocate.
John Flanders 01:34
Okay, well, let me start by saying that I got into this probably the same way every person who is listening to this got into it, when my son was three, he got a pneumococcal meningitis, and as a result, lost much of his hearing. And so at that point, we got dumped, as most people do pretty precipitously into the world of special education, and had to work our way out of work our way through it. It was, it’s challenging for me is pretty much everybody else. But my part of my decision process is a result of it was to lead my career and go to law school. So I described myself as I described myself as a born again, attorney can because my law school career started is as a response to the problem and had midlife crisis. I went to law school at 4031. So
Dana Jonson 02:48
I was close, not quite as close but
John Flanders 02:51
and so I’ve spent the rest of the time I spent coming out of law school, the next 2020 odd years doing Working for Families, with children with disabilities. First nationally, I was the children’s rights advocate for the Alexander Graham Bell Association for the Deaf and Hard of Hearing for a couple of years. And then I came back and started my practice. And then I spent a little over four years as the executive director of the Parent Training and Information Center here in Connecticut, C back. But most of that time, I have been representing families with kids with disabilities. Not enough. I’m currently on my board of education, so I get to see it from both sides, or at least
Dana Jonson 03:42
get to see it from all the angles. Sure. What would you learn through your process, that you realize that you know, like I said, a little different, you go to law school, and, you know, I went to law school as a reaction to not getting the response I wanted as a teacher and administrator, you know, and a lot of people will go to law school because they didn’t get the response they wanted as a parent or as a teacher or administrator. So through that process, what what did you find were some of the hardest things to learn and understand at the beginning?
John Flanders 04:17
Well, I think the single most important thing that a parent can develop in this process and it’s and it’s challenging, is credibility is when lawyers talk about credibility, we talk about the the, you know, the trust, trustworthiness. So, when you’re on a PPT credibility means that the people on the team with you understand that what you’re telling them is useful information that moves through the process. This is not always as cooperative and collaborative situation has We might hope. So, the other side of the credibility coin is that you present yourself, as should there become a conflict in the process, that someone who is capable of carrying through your end of that conflict, somebody who could file a defective complaint, somebody, somebody could do that. And that, in addition to being a source of useful information, makes you gives weight to the things that you say during during the process. Now,
Dana Jonson 05:34
I find that sometimes parents have their eye on the wrong ball.
John Flanders 05:37
Oh, yeah. Quite, quite, quite often.
Dana Jonson 05:42
Feeling is right, something’s wrong there.
John Flanders 05:45
Yeah, their gut feeling is right. Absolutely. But that there is a tendency to pick something fairly specific and focus on it, my child needs three hours of individual reading extra instruction, period. And that may be true. But I think that that’s, I think that that’s important is not a reason to do it. There has to be factual basis behind that. So that’s number one, you need to know enough about your child’s condition in the situation, to be able to a understand what the other members of the team are recommending and why. And to, to be able to find out what information you have, what information they have, and what information is needed, in order to be able to make a rational, intelligent decision about this. So it’s absolutely vital that you get a, I’m going to do a and b a lot, sorry. used to working in PowerPoint, so that think of you think of little dots in the in the dots in what I’m saying, what you need to know about that condition. And that’s great. But you also need to have specific documented information about your child. There’s an old saying about autism, but it applies to everybody. If you’ve met one person with autism, you’ve met one person with autism. And, and, and the law calls this the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act for a reason each kid had presents unique strengths and challenges. And knowing how to diagnose a learning disability doesn’t is only one step along the way in determining what your specific child needs in fourth grade in this program, so that you can’t do that without enough basic knowledge to you. Nobody’s going to be an expert on this. But But understand what they’re saying, understand why they’re saying what have some concept of what the evaluation results look like, have an idea of what that evaluation picked up and what it didn’t pick up what what what?
Dana Jonson 08:21
Well, I found as a parent to that, you know, the more you know, the more you can understand what what is you said the team is saying. So if if someone’s with speech and language expert, and they’re telling me something about an evaluation, I may just assume they know what they’re talking about. And they may know what they’re talking about. But it may not be applicable to my child. And so if I have not looked into what type of speech and language that assessment is, or the services are or any of those components, how can I make an informed decision?
John Flanders 08:52
Exactly right. And how can you ask intelligent questions? How can you say, okay, that’s great, but what about the or, you know, how does that number compare with other students in in this area? So, absolutely, you’ve got to be able to, to ask those appropriate questions. And by asking intelligent questions, and making knowledgeable comments, you’re one of the things you’re doing in addition to advocating effectively for your child is telling everybody else on the team that this is somebody who is function functional in this area. I think one of the great disservices that people in our line of work do is tell parents you’re the expert on your child, and you probably are and that’s absolutely great. But that’s only one aspect of of the equation you know, you know your child very well but chances are pretty good You don’t know bloody thing about teaching how to read You don’t know, really what a third grade curriculum is supposed to look like. And you don’t know, all of the elements that these people who have gone to school and have gotten degrees are, are looking at you and saying, Yeah, you know, Johnny better than anybody else in the world. But I’ve been teaching kids for 15 years that I spent, I spent 16 years in school learning how to do this. So I know something about this. And if you focus too much on what I know, and ignoring what they know, then you find that that affects your credibility. I mean, that that’s the person on the other side of the table is thinking, well, she’s completely ignoring what I’m bringing to the table. Right? Because, because I’ve been to God knows how many DVDs and it’s almost always
Dana Jonson 10:58
Yeah, it is. I always say that, too. It’s usually one parent who is the primary, particularly with children with disabilities, because it’s a lot. And my husband and I have four children with IEPs. So it’s, it’s not, it’s not as easy as some people say, for both parents to be fully involved, because there is so much to
John Flanders 11:19
absorb, somebody’s got to spend more time getting food on the table.
Dana Jonson 11:23
Exactly. And it really and so, you know, you, you know, not having both parents there is not necessarily representative of not both parents being involved. Right, it’s just they’re involved in different ways. But with when you have a child with disabilities, you know, you as you said, you’d have to learn it so that you can articulate what you want need, and what your child wants and needs in a way that the team will hear you. I know that I hear a lot when I go into a PBT and your child’s so so it’s emotional, and parents are upset because their child isn’t making progress, or they don’t feel their child can or whatever the issue is. And a lot of times, I get pulled aside by the opposing counsel to say, you know, just so you know, your parent is a little enough. They’re a little overreacting. They’re a little crazy. And you know, they just need to calm down. And I remember saying to one particular attorney, I said, Well, if my school treated me this way, I would be a little crazy to Yes, and they didn’t like that response. But
John Flanders 12:34
they don’t like, you know, the problem, of course, is is telling a parent to become during a PPP meeting is roughly as effective as telling somebody who’s drowning that you’d be better off keeping your head above the water. Because it’s, it’s not, it’s not something that
Dana Jonson 12:58
you have calming down, the word you calm down, have never been successful,
John Flanders 13:03
never once been successful. So the thing, the one thing that I tell parents, that does help people come down, is there is absolutely nothing that happens at a PPP meeting that can’t be fixed.
Dana Jonson 13:17
That’s the funny I said to and actually, I should say, for anyone listening to this, that we are in Connecticut, and I say this all the time because I say PPT too. In Connecticut, a PPT is our IEP meeting. So in some states, it’s IEP meeting, and lots of states have different acronyms. But here in Connecticut, a PPT is our parent and placement team meetings. And those are what we call IEP meetings.
John Flanders 13:37
Oh, yeah, yeah. And when I did wholesale advocacy, I had to go to a lot of national meetings. And every time I talked, people would laugh at me because Connecticut has its own words for for many, many things. And yeah, interestingly enough, there’s a reason for that. There’s a reason for that. And the reason most often is that we did this stuff before anybody else. Connecticut had ppps before there was an IDA. So the IDA created IEP teams, but we already had planning and placement teams in our in our legal language. And so they call it ppts. The other one that jumps out is Connecticut has what’s called srbiji, which is scientifically researched based intervention, and the National Law causes he calls it RTI response to intervention. We were doing this before anybody else in the country. So we invented our own term and we get, we get to continue to grandfather what we were doing. So
Dana Jonson 14:43
what I’m hearing is that we are the trendsetters.
John Flanders 14:45
We are strangely enough, we are often a training center. One of the things about doing this stuff nationally is is when you when you see all the challenges that people face here it is noticeably worse in other places, and places that you might not expect it to be worse. But, but, but more and fewer challenges and other places where you might expect it to be. Or you might expect it. Yeah.
Dana Jonson 15:19
Parents take that wrong turn at the beginning, you know, when you’re overwhelmed, and there’s a lot going on, and the ability to I do I always feel like I need to say that, you know, a diag any disability, it really changes the trajectory of your child’s education. So, you know, yes, there are disabilities and levels of being impacted that are much more difficult to program for. But that initial wave of not understanding and being lost and blindsided is, I think, fairly universal.
John Flanders 15:55
Yeah, I think I think the couple of areas that that jump out, radically, I will tell you that in 20 years of doing this, I have never been in a situation where there’s a conflict between the school based members of the team and the parents about a program when either when either side could prove their point with documented information. It’s never not a single, it meaning that there are evaluations that would make an independent person to say, yes, you’re absolutely right, or Yes, you’re absolutely wrong. So getting getting factual information is important. I find that that people get to learn a little bit about it about special ed law. And a little bit of information can be very dangerous. So people start asserting rights or saying things that might sound correct. But but are not. And, and a that definitely inhibits your credibility with the team. If you if you say, you know, the law says that I have the right to do so and so independent, independent evaluations are a perfect example, people are always saying I want an independent evaluation. The law says that you get an independent evaluation, if you disagree with something that’s already been evaluated, or if the team has refused to provide you with an evaluation. So if you start demanding something to which the people who are being trained by lawyers who are just as knowledgeable as data, or AI or anybody else, but have a different perspective, that their lawyers are going to tell them No, she doesn’t have a right to that. And, and so you end up with Catholics, getting too emotional is is always a factor. You’re, you’re trying to ruin my child’s life really hurts. In the overwhelming majority of situations, the people who are in that room with you want to do right by your child. But their priorities aren’t exactly in line with yours. It’s, it’s really simple. If you’ve got three kids and one of them has the flu, you are automatically going to be giving more attention to that kid with the flute. That doesn’t mean you don’t love the other kids. It doesn’t mean anything. It’s just that your priorities are there. And there are multiple priorities. I mean, there’s finances. if, if, you know, you’ve got one speech and language pathologist working for your school, and you come in needing an hour of speech and language pathology, and they’ve already given away 35 hours of individuals future language that puts them in a real in a real bind. And they still got to do it. But there isn’t, there is a strong incentive to try and come up with with with an alternative. So I think
Dana Jonson 19:23
if you don’t mind me interrupting, I think that’s a really good point. They do still have to do it. But they can’t snap their fingers and a speech and language person appears on the doorstep. And so I hear that a lot too. And I think there’s that misconception Well, I you know, I know speech and language people who are out of work, why haven’t they hired them? You know, I could find them someone to hire in a heartbeat. And it’s, it’s not that simple.
John Flanders 19:47
No, it’s not because that person is $150,000 $50,000 in the budget. But we have taken steps to try and address that we’ve not done a good job. Have it but you’ll hear the word risk, sometimes mentioned Regional Educational Service Centers, and there’s six of them in the state. And they were set up to provide a pool of people to do this kind of work. So if you’re living in, in Columbia, there probably isn’t enough demand to justify having a speech and language pathologist we’re working on that, you know, you might need 12 hours a week of services, just because there’s not many kids in your school district. The risks were set up, so that there would be a resource there that they could hire, rest would hire a full time person, and you would get 12 hours of that service,
Dana Jonson 20:45
splitting the services up kind of
John Flanders 20:47
schools. In my experience, schools don’t use that resource. Well, effectively. So that another piece of knowledge, go Go on Go on the web, and, and, and Google reskin, Connecticut, and it will tell you who the organization is in your state, and when they say, well, we don’t have a speech and language pathologists, you can say, Well, why don’t you call crec? and see if you can get some time out of them? Or why don’t you call in advance? If you happen to be in the northwest corner? It’s a piece of knowledge. That may answer your question, and certainly makes you look more knowledgeable and credible.
Dana Jonson 21:29
In all of these links that we’re discussing, will be in my show notes. So if you’re listening to this, and you’re on the go, and don’t worry about writing this down, you can go back and look at the show notes later. And I’ll have all that information for you. But I just lost my train of thought. So whatever you say is an important note.
John Flanders 21:47
I try I try to I’m trying very hard. In our profession, there, it is very, very hard not to talk in jargon, and not to talk and legally use. I forget who was that said I’m talking about. And this is another thing that the parents should know is that everybody in the room with you in a PPT is not speaking the same language as you. There’s a great saying that the United States in Great Britain or two nations, separated by a common language. And it is exactly the same in special ed. It’s, it’s the Red Queen, and I’m quoting the hell out of stuff here today. The Red Queen and Alice in Wonderland said that words mean exactly what I say they mean, and nothing more, nothing less. And the law is the same way. A word that you might perfectly well understand in English may not mean exactly the same thing in teacher speak, or in lawyer speak. And so you need to be Don’t, don’t get too carried away. With Don’t, don’t make mistakes onwards. Always, always, always have in the back of your head. Am I wrong here and stop and take a deep breath before. Before
Dana Jonson 23:17
you may not be you may not you may not be but but taking that breath is what’s going to make the difference between presenting as someone who knows what they’re talking about. And someone who’s just reacting.
John Flanders 23:29
Exactly. I mean, I’ve had any number of meetings where we’ve been in discussion, and the parent is getting more and more upset. And I’ve had to take a break in the in the meeting and bring them out in the hallway and say, Look, you need to relax. They’re saying yes. But they’ve got to say yes, it it’s like hopscotch they got to step out every square. And so there’s a yes. Not in the way that you want them to say yes. But I promise you, they’re saying yes. Stop, but don’t fight them. I’d say yes. So it happens a lot. And and so keeping aware that there may be deficits in, in your language and cross understanding
Dana Jonson 24:21
of something. That’s one of the reasons it’s so important to understand more than just your child. You know, understanding the disability will help you understand some of the language that the team is using. If you understand the types of assessments that that in general, or the type of services that are appropriate for your child, if you’ve done that research, then you’re more apt to understand what they are saying and more apt to be able to present yourself in a way that the team understands you.
John Flanders 24:55
And exactly No,
Dana Jonson 24:57
there are not Italy Oh
John Flanders 24:59
yeah. We say that as a parent with a child with a disability, you are probably wasting three or four hours a night sleeping, when you could be, in addition to taking care of your family learning about this stuff. And there are huge numbers of groups, any disability that you can think of has several organizations focus strictly on that, and you can get information from them, you can almost always get in contact with other parents who are in the same situation, hearing what other parents have gone through is, is vitally useful in in all of this. There are also plenty of organizations out there that provide tons of information on the law and your rights and all of this. The national organization called COPPA co PA, which is the Council of parent attorneys and advocates, wonderful resources, they’ve got a we have a national meeting coming up next week. And
Dana Jonson 26:01
for all the time, I mean, really is to me the best resource that’s out there. For parents of children,
John Flanders 26:08
and going to the national meeting, even even, I was listening to a webinar last night, and the speaker was saying, well, there is the national meeting. So it’s, it’s virtual, and you won’t have to subject yourself to going to an interesting location, or eating different food or you know, going out and having cocktails with your friends, you can do this all from the comfort of your own home, which made it sound so much more attractive. But organizations like that are, are extremely useful in helping out this and there’s everybody does webinars and seminars and trainings. And the fact that everybody’s doing it virtually means that it’s you could have something like this, that that’s recorded that you can listen to it at three o’clock in the morning, instead of instead of worrying about things you can take steps to. So I, you know, there is no shortage of resources.
Dana Jonson 27:10
Now. And that’s I mean, that’s another thing I always say is you have to remember that parents of children with disabilities are often sleep deprived. And that’s not necessarily because their child’s disability is keeping them up at night. It is because of the level of paperwork and research and learning that you have to do on a consistent ongoing basis.
John Flanders 27:32
And anxiety
Dana Jonson 27:33
and anxiety, total anxiety, especially when you are I find you know, surrounded if you are not in the disability world, if your friends don’t have children with disabilities, if your family doesn’t have children with disabilities, they may be there and be supportive that they don’t actually get. And I always recommend parent groups as well, john, I mean, you’re absolutely right. You can especially now online and with the pandemic, we’d have everything’s been pushed online. So there really is access to everything. One thing I always tell parents Oh, or maybe I should ask you what you tell parents is, you know, while other parents stories are incredibly helpful, and their support is incredibly helpful, you always have to take it with a grain of salt to their child’s case isn’t your child’s case.
John Flanders 28:24
There’s their child’s case and your child’s case. And also you don’t know what they know. The The internet is a wonderful source of information is also a huge source of misinformation. So so check sources. I go button the parent listservs all the time, and parents, you know, respond to questions with stuff that’s wrong. stuff, that’s the worst ones of the stuff that are almost right. And so double check if if something comes through, check with somebody else, or you know, call organizations like that, that are that are available to, to that do have knowledgeable people that are out there. Connecticut, disability rights, other organizations.
Dana Jonson 29:27
I really can’t stress enough how much having that support of just other parents who get it too. You know, because a lot of what we deal with is very stressful. And and some of it’s really funny, but like only to us funny, you know? I always joke I was telling one of my husband’s Christmas parties. I was telling a story about my kids I thought was really funny. And then I looked up and one woman was crying and I’m like maybe maybe not my god
John Flanders 29:56
y’all But
Dana Jonson 30:04
parents when, you know they, when should parents look for help? When when should they say, you know? Because I think there that’s hard to do when you’re researching and learning and constantly and it’s ongoing. That doesn’t mean you know, everything or know everything, and there’s no special ed police.
John Flanders 30:26
No, there’s not unfortunately. So, you should, you should look for help always. right from the very first. But to decide when to pay for the help.
Dana Jonson 30:40
Yeah, that
John Flanders 30:42
is a different question. And the two answers are, one when you when you don’t, when you’ve reached a wall, where I don’t know what to do next, I absolutely can’t figure it out, I’ve been going online and I can’t figure it out. or two, when you come to the point, I just can’t handle this anymore. Realize that if you the last three Pt ppts have ended, because you were yelling at the staff, that maybe you need somebody who’s who’s, who is ethically on your side committed committed to doing what you need to do, but, but less emotionally charged. The other thing that you need to do when you ask for help, is figure out what kind of help you need to ask for. You don’t always need to have an advocate come to your PPT meetings for you. I would guess two thirds of my clients, the school never sees me, my job I see is to basically create that foundation that we’ve been talking about all to pull up the records, to put some knowledgeable review on this record. And then to give the parents enough confidence and, and foundation to go in and do it themselves. And, and it tends to be better to do it certainly cheaper to do it yourself. So ask, when you when you’re asking the person, ask, you know, if I can I consult with you, you know, do we need to do I need to have you come into these Pvt. You know, am I going to do process, though those are all important questions for a parent to ask with when they’re asking for help. So it is at least as important to figure out what kind of help you need when you need help. But but the two thing, I mean, the two times are one when you when the water closes over your head, you realize that I simply can’t do this by myself. And and who would I when I’ve gotten to the point where I’m where I’m where the they’ve made me so mad that we can’t possibly be a team or made me so upset that we can’t possibly a team are the are the two biggest kickers in life.
Dana Jonson 33:27
And I would say the third, which is what somebody said to me, and it was one of our colleagues. Were talking just about kids and I’m, as I said for kids with IEP s and she turned to me and she said, So who’s your advocate? And I was like What do you mean, I’m not in dispute with anyone I don’t understand. And so my kids are tough, you know, they’re not easy. But, you know, we have had our battles with our school district. But, you know, at that moment, I was sort of like, what what are you talking about? She was you for children with IPS? Are you seriously doing this all by yourself? And it never dawned on me that I shouldn’t be doing it all by myself. And you know, I do think that’s an important thing too. It’s, it’s not a weakness, it’s not that you’re in a bad place. Sometimes you just need somebody else to help you, you know, to to help you and that’s not necessarily an attorneys job.
John Flanders 34:23
No, it’s not it might be an advocate it might be an
Dana Jonson 34:25
advocate or someone do to get that kind of support that you know, even if it’s having an advocate with me was amazing because I didn’t have to worry about whether I was documenting everything because I knew somebody else was gonna make sure of that while I was losing my mind.
John Flanders 34:42
So it that that’s a that’s a great that is a great that I mean, I know how to change the flat tire, and I’m strong enough to change a flat tire. But the last few times I’ve had flat tires I called triple A because it was Somebody else did it, it’s, it’s easier. It takes a lot of the strain off, and I don’t have to spend the next three days, washing the grease out from under my fingernails, it that isn’t a sign of weakness, it is a sign of realizing it is a sign of realizing and acknowledging that, that this isn’t all of your life. And for somebody like Dana or myself, it is the major focus of our life. We, we spend our time learning about this stuff every day, and we spend all that time learning this stuff that you spend going to work. And because it’s our job, and
Dana Jonson 35:46
we’re learning all the time, special education on some level, for you know, 2530 years, and I’m still learning, you know, it’s always evolving, you’ve never finished, I’ve never understood that even when I was teaching, some teachers would say I know what I’m doing. And I thought you might, but you don’t want to learn something new, you know, like that. It’s constant. It’s an ever changing field. So you’re never done learning?
John Flanders 36:16
Yes. I’m trying to think of the name of the book, I was just reading a book about baseball, and they’re talking about changing this person teaching baseball players how to change their swing. And the ones who did best were the ones who are already great hitters, but went to get, do it just a little bit differently and do it, do it a little bit better than the golf pros. Every Sorry, I’m, I’m a middle aged guy, I call but the golf pros I’ll take, I’ll take lessons every week. They learn they’re learning new stuff, they’re they’re fine tuning in. And, and we are doing that as well. And stuff changes and stuff can change very quickly. So it, it it it’s not a sign of weakness to know that if it’s not your full time job, you can’t keep track of that, as well.
Dana Jonson 37:16
I also find like with conferences, like we’re talking about COPPA, there was one that I one of the sessions. It’s like a Friday session that I used to go to every year, same people similar content every year. And every year, I learned something different because I was somewhere different in my life personally in my life professionally. So even though it was the same full day session, depending on where you are in life, or your child, where your child is in life, you may glean something different from something you’ve learned before. Does that make sense?
John Flanders 37:49
Sorry, yeah, I mean, everything that you’ve learned that helps your child in sixth grade, when that child is is 18, and ready to go on to the next step in that in her life. Those are way way different questions. And, and a lot of what you learn when, when she was 12 is not enough to deal with, with the new questions. And so and again, if you’ve got if you got another job and all that, it’s it’s difficult to keep track of that stuff. And, and so ask for help, you know, and maybe you don’t need to have somebody represent you, but maybe you do have somebody need to have somebody sit down with you and line up things for you. And that’s a, that’s an important part of what we do.
Dana Jonson 38:42
I think it’s also understanding your skill set, right? Like my skill set is not baking cupcakes for a birthday party, I have a different skill set, I outsource, I always have. So you know, if that became something that I had to do regularly for one of my kids, it would it would be difficult, you know, if you’re not somebody who’s organized, you might want somebody to help you get your organized how you keep track of your child. And you know that there’s there lots of pieces to this. It’s a it’s like an extra job. It’s it really is it’s like an extra job that you have. So if you can, if you have the resources to get an assistant, find out.
John Flanders 39:25
Exactly, you go to a great, you go to a fine restaurant, and the chef doesn’t do the baking, you have to have you have to have an extra as good as you are at making, you know, chicken cordon bleu, you probably don’t know how to make you’re probably less skillful at making apple pies. And so recognize the limitations of your skill set.
Dana Jonson 39:48
Recognize that so what what parting words would you give for parents and we were talking about why it’s so important and I think it I think it’s obvious I think everyone knows this It’s important, but I think it’s important to hear it over and over again. For me anyway, it is that you know, this, this is important. You need to seek help. And and you know what, what other words of wisdom pearls of wisdom Can we give parents
John Flanders 40:20
it’s, it’s not an entirely appropriate quote.
Dana Jonson 40:25
And those are the kinds I love.
John Flanders 40:27
But there was a agent general in China called Sun Tzu and he wrote a book called The Art of War. And one of the precepts in the art of war is know yourself and know your enemy. And in 1000, battles, you will not be defeated. It’s inappropriate, because the people who are on your PPT are not the enemy. They call it a team for a reason. But you do need to know what you know, you need to know about your child. But equally importantly, you need to know what you don’t know. And you need to know what the other people in the room know and think in order to effectively advocate for because if you’re trying to persuade somebody that they’re nobody in the history of the world has ever been persuaded that they were a jerk. So that if you’re spending your time trying to persuade the other people on the team, that they’re jerks for the decisions they’re making about your child, you’re not going to win. So knowing where they’re coming from, is, is as important as knowing what you know. So I, I ask questions, if nothing, if nothing, if you get nothing else from this or any other thing, the single most important thing you can do is, as a parent in this is ask questions
Dana Jonson 41:52
and insist on the answers
John Flanders 41:55
and insist on the answers. Yeah, that’s especially educational has a thing called prior written notice, which means that whenever the school does something or doesn’t do something, they’re supposed to provide you with a written explanation of the reasons for that test that they’ve done. evaluations. And I don’t know when three quarters to to four fifths of the of the ups that I read that that answer is the team decided that’s not necessary. That’s not you start to ask, you need to ask questions. Why did the team Why does the team think that that’s that’s what tests the team look at to make the determination that that’s necessary? So ask questions.
Dana Jonson 42:39
Be specific. Yeah, you see that all the time? Why, you know, why is something refused me IP says, due to records, you know, the record reflects Well, well, what specific? And I think that’s a good point. And be be specific with your questions. Make sure you get your answers. You may not always like the answers. And I also tell parents to trust their gut. They’re usually right on some level.
John Flanders 43:03
Yep. trust, trust your gut, but then figure out how to prove it. trust your gut, but but, but but on your gut. You’re you’re not trying to persuade your gut, your gut, the gut already made that decision figure, figure out, figure out what what your gut needs to tell somebody else to agree with you.
Dana Jonson 43:21
Yes, exactly. I love that. Well, thank you, john. This has been incredibly informative and helpful. And I am sure that parents are going to benefit from this. So when parents are listening to this and they say, Oh my gosh, who is this? JOHN Flanders I have to give him a call. How do they find you?
John Flanders 43:40
So you can find me on Facebook and one of these days I might go to get my website up? I am. I am. I am. I am working diligently to get into the 20th century. I know a lot about the law but I don’t know a whole lot about technology. But you can reach me at 860-559-4706 or you can send me an email at john at Flanders group dotnet or you can find me on Facebook.
Dana Jonson 44:11
I like Facebook, you know I like Facebook. I have all of that information in the show notes where you just about to make fun of my Facebook postings.
John Flanders 44:20
I was not going to do that. I was going to compliment you on your T shirt though. Like are you like that?
Dana Jonson 44:26
I do this podcast don’t have a visual I’ll read it it says underestimate me That will be fun.
John Flanders 44:33
Yes.
Dana Jonson 44:34
Another attorney Laura Hannigan in my office gave this to me she thought that
John Flanders 44:38
I knowing data as long as I have that’s probably ironic under estimating her would not be fun.
Dana Jonson 44:51
might have been the boy Thank you so much. This has been really fun and I sure I’m going to call you back for always Hi Cass
John Flanders 45:01
always glad to talk to you. Wonderful. Thank
Dana Jonson 45:03
you john. Have a wonderful day and I will see you soon.
John Flanders 45:06
Sounds good.
