Beware the Ides of March as with March comes IEP season and it’s time to prep! Around the middle of March, schools start holding IEP meetings to plan for the following school year. School districts are slammed trying to schedule all the meetings, students are at the beginning of the end of their school year, and parents need to prepare to advocate on behalf of their child. So how can you be best prepared? Today I speak with special education Attorney Laura Heneghan and non-lawyer special education Advocate Stacey Tié about what parents can do to put themselves in the best position possible to be an equal member of the IEP process. Join us!
You can find both Laura and Stacey at:
https://SpecialEd.Law
[email protected]
[email protected]
TRANSCRIPT (not proofread)
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
iep meeting, child, parents, meeting, iep, evaluation, ip, record, concerns, agree, goals, objectives, laura, ppt, school district, team, attorney, talk, school, important
SPEAKERS
Stacey Tié, Special Education Advocate, Laura Heneghan, Special Education Attorney, Dana Jonson
Dana Jonson 00:02
Hello, and welcome to need to know with Dana Jonson. I’m your host, Dana Jonson and I’m here to give you the information you need to know to best advocate for your child. I’m a special education attorney in private practice, a former special education teacher and administrator, a current mom to four children with IPS and I myself have ADHD and dyslexia. So I’ve approached the world of disability and special education from many angles. And I’ll provide straightforward information about your rights and your schools obligations, information from other professionals on many topics, as well as tips and tricks for working with your school district. My goal is to empower you through your journey. So please subscribe to this podcast so you don’t miss any new episodes and I want to know what you want to know. So like follow and drop me a note on my need to know with Dana Jonson Facebook page. Okay, let’s get started. Today I am speaking with one of my favorite special ed advocates and one of my favorite special ed attorneys, Stacey tie and Laura Hennigan. Hi, guys. Thanks for joining me.
Laura Heneghan, Special Education Attorney 01:06
Hi.
Stacey Tié, Special Education Advocate 01:06
Hi.
Dana Jonson 01:07
I say thank you, but they work with me. So they sort of have to be here for here under duress. So I wanted to get together with you guys and hold this episode, which I am titling. Beware the Ides Beware the Ides of March because March is when they pee meeting season start. And this is when we are all gearing up and getting ready to go to all the IEP meetings for our clients to plan for next year or the summer here in Connecticut. Anyway, we have a ton of IEP meetings during the spring. So what we thought would be helpful as parents are getting ready for that. And since we had no IEP meetings last year, we all might be a little bit out of practice for them. So we wanted to go through and talk about some tips and tricks for parents and things to be aware of and remember as you enter into this IEP season, and you prepare for your child’s IEP, so Stacy and Laura, Stacy, as an advocate, you do a lot of prep with your clients for the PBT meetings for Laura and me We usually are more we’re more running the PBT than we are telling other people how to do it. So what would be one of your first recommendations for your parents, when you sit down, you’re like, Okay, here’s our PBT prep, what’s one of the first things you recommend they do.
Stacey Tié, Special Education Advocate 02:28
So I always ask parents to make sure that when they get their invite that the date and time works for them, and that they review who’s invited and make sure everybody is there on the team that’s invited that they want their to speak to. The second thing I have them do is make sure they email their team members and ask for the completed progress report, most recent report card if we’re close to report card season, if there was any evaluation done and asked for all of that information to be given to them at least five days prior to the meeting, so that they could point because they are required to get their invitation five days in advance. So you want to make sure that you’re asking probably before you even get the invitation, right, you want to send it a message to your team saying, you know, we I know we’ve got this IP meeting coming up, and I want to make sure I have everything in advance. And so even before they get the invitation, Walkley, you know, and then I tell them to review all that information and and i will even meet with them and and look at things and point out things to them. And I tell them to do to reach out to specific service providers that they might have questions for in advance just to help themselves prepare for their their meeting. No surprises are never helpful. Or we go to the IEP meeting. And if you haven’t told anyone at all what you’re asking for what you want, it might be a bit a bit chaotic. I to the point of the event of the invitation, Stacy, I also wanted to point out, Laura, I don’t know if you get this call a lot too, for my client will call me and say you’re not on the invitation. And all the time. Yeah, all the time.
Dana Jonson 04:09
And we have to explain that the invitation is who the school district is inviting, right? So it may not be everyone that the parent wants invited. But I always recommend if you’re inviting somebody that’s not on there that the school district doesn’t isn’t aware of, obviously, we’re inviting an attorney, you have to tell the district because they have the right to bring their attorney. But if you’re bringing an advocate or even a friend, somebody to help you just get through the process is always better I find to let them know in advance to prepare.
Laura Heneghan, Special Education Attorney 04:40
And I think when you’re when you’re contemplating if you should bring somebody that the primary purpose I would say for even just bringing a friend is there’s so much going on and it’s all about your child. So you’re already in a kind of heightened emotional state, that if you have somebody who can just take notes on what’s being said, while you’re focusing on listening to what’s being said it’s really helpful.
Dana Jonson 04:59
Yeah Yes, that’s a great point. And to that point, because all IEP meetings right now are on zoom, or at least the vast majority of them here in Connecticut, we’re still doing them on zoom. And I would anticipate we will always do them on zoom, or I hope so because I think it’s been great. That brings me to recording. So Stacy, in this world of zoom, how, how do parents go about recording their IP meetings? Now, I think it’s even easier in this world to ask the team to record meetings, I think it’s less, you know, you used to, you used to go. And it’s there’s also a human part of being on zoom, people have dogs and everything. But the three of us, I think we have like seven animals that might show off during this recording. But I think I think it’s easier to record in this zoom this virtual world we live in before, you would say you’d have to let them know ahead of time that you want to record. And then you you know, you get there and you bring out whatever device you’re bringing, and put it in the middle of the table and recording. And it’s a little awkward. This This time, it’s way easier. It’s just a click of a button. And I don’t think anybody even really thinks about it anymore. So I actually think that’s one of the benefits that we’ve seen from having ppts virtually from a legal component. I would also point out though, that we do still need to give the district notice right now, it is easy to record from home. And it’s still really critical that you tell your district if you are recording, and you give them the opportunity to record as well, have you run into any problems with that Laura, really, I sometimes the whether it’s video or just audio is question and we just have to talk through it. And I think that’s just another reason why you should address it in advance, you know, I just want to pipe in on the zoom ppts. I think one of the big advantages of it, and I see it in ppts. And the mediations and you know any other venue, is it takes away a little bit of the school’s home court advantage, you’re not walking into a room that’s already set with 10 to 12 people, and you’re walking in by yourself to discuss your child, you’re you’re adding, you know, you’re just joining a conversation, where everybody’s kind of in their own space. And I find that really kind of leveling the playing field for parents, I was thinking about that I was thinking about whether I should, you know, float the room I’m using as an office, since I’m still at home, like if I should just not put in my air conditioner. And like make everybody come sit in here with me as I go through all my IEP meetings this spring so that I really get the feel of it. Like in rooms like 20 of us gasping for air. I agree. I think the home court advantage pieces really made a huge difference to where there’s not enough chairs. I always love that when there’s there’s not enough chairs. Yes, your devil road. Or, you know, typically you can’t get both parents there too, I have found because yes, you know, it is hard to attend to PPT or as we say in Connecticut, a PPT but in the rest of the world probably an IEP meeting, most parents have to take the full day off, a lot of parents can’t just hop in and out of work.
Laura Heneghan, Special Education Attorney 08:04
I think if it’s a good point that if you get pushback on recording the PPT, a really good way to get around that is if you can’t both participate that in order to meaningfully participate as equal members of the PPT. Both parents should have the opportunity to hear what’s going on. And then one parents case that might be reviewing the recording of what happened when they couldn’t be there.
Dana Jonson 08:25
Yes, absolutely.
Stacey Tié, Special Education Advocate 08:26
And I think recording is helpful. Like you said, Laura, earlier that you know, there’s a lot of emotion and anxiety that goes into you know, when you’re talking about your kid at these meetings. And when you can record it, you know, sometimes some of these things, these meanings become a blur. And then when you’re reviewing we’ll talk about a little later reviewing your IP later you have a recording to go back to and refer to, which I think is helpful as well. So
Dana Jonson 08:50
absolutely. And I would say that it is harder to record on your end with these things. And so I think for some Google meets or zoom, you need to get permission from the host to record it. So if the school can’t give you permission to record it, then you need to get their copy of the file. And I would recommend following up with that immediately afterwards, because the only issue that I have had is if the school district automatically records them to a specific file that the person running the PPT may not have access to. So just going through that process of obtaining the file would be then be difficult, though to make sure that there is follow up on that. And part of the problem with that in the recording piece I find is if you are in a location where you need to use your earbuds at least from the guest perspective. It’s harder to record. So unless you have it on speaker and that can eliminate that privacy component and that confidentiality component. Actually the IP meeting I was in yesterday morning that was the first thing they said was is everybody somewhere where either knowing can hear your speakers or you have earbuds in and that confidentiality is being maintained, which I thought was interesting. That was the first IEP meeting I’ve been to where they asked that right up front, which I thought was good. So what other what other aspects do we need to do to prepare? What can I do to make sure that they are ready when they walk in. So I think a really important part is parents preparing their their concerns and their input for the IEP meeting. And that’s what I spend a lot of my time with my prep with clients beforehand, I joke to my husband that I probably should be a psychologist, because I end up it becomes like a therapy session. And I even tell my clients, I’m like, okay, just tell me everything that’s going on, all your fears are your worries, let’s just talk about it. And we spend, we spend time and I just listened to them talk about their concerns and kind of take notes, and I help them organize their thoughts. And there are notes and put it together so that they can send it to the team in advance of the IEP meeting. Yeah. And I think that is helpful again in the in advance, because then you can say that they have time to review it. And for the same reason, you don’t want to be sitting in an IEP meeting reading an evaluation for the first time. You don’t necessarily want them to be receiving your parent concerns for the first time. Although hopefully this isn’t the first time they’ve ever heard that you’ve had any concerns. If it is mean, it could be because something could have just popped up. But generally, we would hope that there’s been ongoing communication with your team. So nothing’s a complete shocker. Do you have specific areas that you recommend parents speak to in their concerns? I know I always tell parents to incorporate things that are not negative. Right, you may have concerns, but what are some of the strengths too? Yeah, definitely. It just like the you know, in the IEP, there’s usually there’s what we call the pull up the present levels of academic or educational performance. And it talks about what a child’s strengths and what their their weaknesses are. And so I absolutely want to highlight that because a lot of times some of their strengths is something that we use to help in areas of where, where they’re struggling. And I think to don’t limit that to purely academic, it’s also about your child’s social, emotional and physical well being and behaviors and attitudes and everything else that goes into the school day. Absolutely. Academics is I mean, I’m sorry, education is more than academics. So we absolutely have to keep in mind those other pieces and the related services.
Laura Heneghan, Special Education Attorney 12:30
The other tip I would throw in is bring a photo of your child and bring work samples, because when when the school is telling you that your child can write a three paragraph story, and you produce one sentence that has no punctuation or capitalization and nothing is spelled correctly, it can be really powerful in a meeting.
Dana Jonson 12:49
Absolutely. And request work samples to if someone is telling you something at the IP meeting that you don’t agree with, then ask to see the data that supports it or the documentation that they have that supports their claims, because if they don’t have any work samples or any data, then you know, this becomes a he said she said and you don’t want that to go farther and to develop an escalate without any information whatsoever. Now, so yeah, I also recommend parents becoming this before you even know you’re going to have PBT before you’ve even talked to or thought about your annual PPT meeting or the meeting that you’re going to have in the spring, you need to learn how to read the documents, you know, you really need to look at your IP and and look at what’s in there. And you know, we could do an entire episode on how to read your IP. And we probably should and probably will, but it is important to become familiar with it. And what are the sections? And what are the components and looking at, you know, your summary and recommendations? And where are things written? If you ask for something, and the school district did said no to you? Is it in that IEP? So where would it be? So I think really becoming familiar with the documentation that you’re going to be presented in the IEP meeting is critical to participating in the IEP meeting. And if you’re handed documents you don’t know how to read, then you’re not going to be able to fully meaningfully participate. So to that point, Laura, when when parents go to the IEP meeting, and they realize that something is either going south or they don’t understand something, how can they either take their break or figure it out without relinquishing their rights without saying I gotta stop it. I’m running away from this meeting.
Laura Heneghan, Special Education Attorney 14:31
Yeah, I think as we mentioned earlier, it’s very overwhelming for parents to be in this situation, especially when you’re talking about your child. And I think the thing to go into the meeting is knowing that you know your child better than any person in that room, and what you have to say is probably the most valuable input in that room and kind of go in with that confidence. And if you’re feeling your confidence wavering, just say I need a minute to take a break or I need to take a minute and read this document that we’re Talking about or ask for clarification from the person who’s talking about whatever the issue is. And I think to that point, you know, the, the invitation will tell you who’s going to be there, and people are going to be there. But they’re not necessarily the people that are working with your child every day. So what I really like to do is to make sure is the ask everybody, are you a service provider for my child? Or are you here, because you’re a science teacher or a special ed teacher. And that way, you know, when they’re giving you the input, whether they actually know your child and kind of what they’re talking about. So knowing their role, and what they actually do with your child is really important. And the other thing I like to do to kind of set the tone of the meeting, which I think for parents is really important is started the meeting with saying, Listen, I’d like to see a copy of my child’s schedule. And I’d like you just to walk me through what their day looks like. And that way you’re, you’re kind of easing into the meeting, and you’re getting an opportunity to see where your child is and who they’re with all day, and who in that audience is acting interacting with your child during the day?
Dana Jonson 16:03
That’s a good point, because it will while IP meetings are required to have certain people in certain roles, and always have somebody who can answer any requests, and has the authority to do that. As you said, Laura, that doesn’t mean it has to be somebody working with your child. And I tell parents that a lot over summer IEP meetings is that yes, schools are obligated to hold your IEP meeting over the summer, if you’ve made a request and one is necessary, but you have to understand that logistically, they may not be able to pull together your child’s team. So typically, during IP season, if it’s your typical annual IEP meeting, there’s a better chance you’re going to have your child’s team at that meeting. But it is a very good point to make sure that’s who those people are. Because you may not know everyone on your team, you should on some level, but I’ll be candid as a parent, I have walked into IEP meetings where there were team members I hadn’t met yet or didn’t know. And they did actually work with my child, I just didn’t know them. And knowing your child’s entire team intimately is not always an option. Yeah. So I find that to be an interesting piece. So now let’s say we’re prepared, let’s say we have our documentation. And you know, we’re ready. We know everyone who’s going to be there, we think we’re inviting everybody we should be what can parents expect when they walk into their IEP meeting?
Laura Heneghan, Special Education Attorney 17:29
Well, there’s going to always be an introduction. And they’re going to go around and tell everybody’s roll, and on zoom. Usually they’re they’re starting to get it down. It used to be a little haphazard, because nobody knew when to jump in. We’re now usually the the whoever’s running the meeting, well ask different people to introduce themselves. And that that’s been helpful. Stacey, you want to talk since you’re in so many IPS.
Stacey Tié, Special Education Advocate 17:54
I yeah, I always again, a part of my PrEP is I also manage parents expectations of what to expect in the meeting. And the structure of the meeting starts with introductions, as you said, you start with I like the idea of the schedule, I’ve never done that before, I’m going to use that. So thank you for that. And, you know, it’s and then you start with the present levels of performance, each member of the team sort of talks about your child and where where they currently are. And you are a part of that I find often, again, that’s why we spend a lot of time on parent concerns in my prep, because I find a lot of times parents get in there. And they have a huge role. And as you said, they are the ones that know their kid better than anybody else. So I’ve tried to make sure they’re prepared to talk to what their concerns are and what they think their kids strengths are, as well. And then from there, you talk about the goals, and then you talk about accommodations, and about service hours. And so I kind of manage how the structure of the meeting is going to go. So and again, if there’s any evaluations, we talked about that during the prep, or the present levels of performance, if discussing
Dana Jonson 18:56
goals and objectives, it is a good thing to talk about for a minute, because I find that sometimes that can be the bulk of the meeting, if no IP goals or objectives have been created yet, or if the parent hasn’t seen them and has to review them. So I always let parents know and let school districts know that if the parent hasn’t seen them yet, or doesn’t have full time to digest them, that you know, are they in general areas of concern? And if so great. But then have the parent make it to an appointment or a time to speak to whoever the teacher is who’s the person who’s going to edit or look at the goals and objectives and say, you know, who do I speak to later when I have questions Who do I call specifically to discuss possibly amending or changing any of these if I have questions because I find it very overwhelming as a parent to look at goals and objectives. I can’t compare those two last year in that moment at the IEP meeting.
Laura Heneghan, Special Education Attorney 19:52
I think to that they come in with proposed or draft goals and objectives which you know, part of Your rights as the school’s not allowed to pre determine what services or disability your child has. And if they’re walking in with draft goals, it kind of seems like they are pre determining things. So you have to think of them as a first step and read through them. And if you have changes, submit the changes, those are not written in stone. They are drafts, it’s an idea of what they’re looking at. But if there are no goals that you think are appropriate for your child, that’s part of your response to the to the IEP when you get it. And I would I mean, it’s devils, I
20:31
have a question. Oh, yeah.
Stacey Tié, Special Education Advocate 20:33
I have a question on that. So if you’re, so you bring up a good point about predetermination. So if it’s your annual, and you’re not in the middle of trial, or it’s not a referral to special education, so your child has already been identified for services, this is just your annual. So you’re, you’re reviewing your goals, and you’re redoing your goals for that next year. Right? Because hopefully, you’re progressing and you’re working towards new goals. Is it okay to ask the team for draft goals that they’re preparing in advance of the meeting? Like I said, When I asked for progress report and all that to look at when I’m preparing, can we ask for draft goals ahead of time? That’s not is that does that interfere with predetermination?
Laura Heneghan, Special Education Attorney 21:12
And I think, no, I absolutely asked for them in advance. Yeah, at the same time I asked for any evaluations. I also asked for any proposed goals and objectives, I called them proposed goals and objectives. Once I get them, and I go through them, I sent back a by bullet point, by goal by objective changes that I want. And I say, if the team is not willing to put these in as changes to the IEP, then I want this email copied and put on, you know, in the child’s record as an educational record, so that it’s there. Yeah, that’s documenting your input, you know, before, during, or after the IEP meeting,
Dana Jonson 21:49
I actually get irritated when I don’t have the goals and objectives in advance. And I know that, you know, I know that there’s that predetermination piece, but I think that predetermination piece only comes if the school is saying these are our goals and objectives, period. You know, this is what I grabbed it, and we’re not changing them. And I have almost never been in an IEP meeting where the school district said, No, I’m not changing them, I won’t entertain it, we won’t discuss it, I have never had that happen personally or professionally. So I do think that that that is important. And if parents can have them in advance to review, then you have a better chance at being able to fully participate in the IEP meeting. That being said, though, I agree, I like that you said that the parents know their kids the best because they do that the same time, parents aren’t teachers and may not know how to write a goal or objective. So it’s okay for you to not like it and not really know how to fix it to, then then you want to figure out who’s there to fix it? What are your concerns with it? And if your concern is I don’t know how you’re going to measure this. That’s a huge concern. So I think it’s really important for parents to learn about goals and objectives and how to write goals and objectives. Because they really, there are no special ed police, right, we as the parents are the special ed police.
Laura Heneghan, Special Education Attorney 23:12
So if I think going back to Stacy’s point earlier about knowing the president levels, what that really means is you want to know your baseline, where’s your child starting? So you’re developing a plan for the next year. And if they say my child will go from, you know, this level of reading to this level of reading over the next year, I would ask is that based on grade level is that based on the child’s ability, because if you have a kid that’s a year and a half behind, and they’re going to make up a year of progress, they’re still going to be a year and a half behind. So when they’re when you’re looking at the goals and objectives, and you’re looking at what they’re basing it off of just be aware whether it’s your child’s ability, or what the grade level standards should be? Yeah,
Dana Jonson 23:52
I mean, again, that’s where you have to become the expert on everything, your child, you know, and and it is, I mean, I was I was talking about that in my last episode, that it’s a full time job. You know, it really is a full time job to do all of this. But I think, you know, the best advice is to be prepared. So the more you understand about the different components of the IEP and have what you’re looking for, and what you’re entitled to, is really, really important. What about when parents are presented with documentation during the IEP meeting, that they weren’t anticipating, you know, like, consent form, or some other thing that they have never seen the schedule? Sometimes I know, parents get presented schedules very quickly, and I’ve had parents call me say, Well, I don’t know if I’m supposed to approve this or not, because I don’t know if they should drop Spanish in order to take you know, speech and language or, you know, they they’re talking a lot about the schedule and what does and doesn’t work, and I don’t know how that fits in. So what what do you advise parents when the scheduling issue becomes an issue in the IEP meeting, neither of you can jump on in I don’t know which one of us
Stacey Tié, Special Education Advocate 25:02
I think one because got Stacy No, I would say anything that comes new in the meeting that you didn’t have prior, I would just say thank you for this, I will review it. And I, you know, who do I get back to with my questions and concerns. And it may be that you have to call another PPT. It may be that you’re okay with it. But that’s anything new that’s presented in the meeting, I always just say thank you for this, I’m not ready to speak to this right now. I’ll review it. And we’ll get back to who should I get back to and how to move forward.
Laura Heneghan, Special Education Attorney 25:30
I’ve seen that take different forms. For example, I listen to PPT where they said, you know, in order for us to deliver the services that you want, your child’s going to have to miss either a special so gym, or art or music or science or social studies. And we recommend that they miss you know which one and you’re a parent or yourself sudden you’re frozen like a deer in the headlights because you don’t want your child to miss any of those things. So Stacey said he kind of step back a moment say I need time to process this and talk to my child, maybe art is really important to your child. And third grade science is not that big a deal in the grand scheme of things versus what they’re going to be receiving during that time. So there’s no reason that you have to make that decision in the moment. And if there’s anything that they hand you to sign that you don’t fully understand, don’t sign it until you fully understand it, have it explained to you by the person that’s presenting it. And if they don’t do a sufficient job, you know, try to reach out to other parents who have been through the process or call and ask an attorney or advocate will will always answer a kind of one off question like that or look at something. So I just don’t sign something if you don’t understand it. The
Dana Jonson 26:37
other thing that I also talked about those consent forms when the school district wants to conduct an evaluation or do something that requires the parents signature, it is really critical that parents understand if they say no, they may be relinquishing some rights. So if you’re unsure unclear, I always recommend that parents say just that I’m unclear on this. I am not saying no, I need time to review it. Because almost inevitably when I find when I get files from school districts, if the parent did not find that consent, the day it was provided to them, the notes say the parents refused. And that is from a legal perspective, that means something. And that means that the parent could be relinquishing some rights. So it’s really critical that if you’re going, if you’re not doing it in the moment, that you’re not refusing it, you’re just taking your time to understand it.
Laura Heneghan, Special Education Attorney 27:35
And I think another important we’re all in Connecticut, where we don’t have to sign IPS. There are states where you have to sign IPS and states that they ask you to sign IPS but it doesn’t really mean anything if you sign an IP, so know your state law. And if you if they’re requiring that you sign it in order for them to produce the services to your child, but you don’t agree with it. Write that on there. I agree to implement this IEP. But I don’t agree with x y&z so that if there’s parts that you do agree with, they can start providing those services to your child. But you know, you need to know your state and whether your signature on it is required or not,
Dana Jonson 28:13
that is a very good point. And this is not, you know, I probably should have opened with this. But we are not offering legal advice to your specific case, we’re talking very generally about the components of an IEP meeting and what parents should do to prepare for it. And you can allow the school district to implement the IEP that you don’t agree with. So I get that call a lot. If I say no, does my child get no services. And that’s not the case, you do want to set your record. So if you don’t agree with something, you really do want to state that in your IEP meeting, and you want to make sure it’s properly documented. And we’ll talk about that in a minute. But you don’t have to agree with it for them to implement it. So, you know, unless you think it’s damaging, which, you know, a lot of the time, it’s not, it’s just a matter of it’s not sufficient services, or they’re not the ones that you want, or that you think will be appropriate for your child. But that doesn’t mean they’re damaging, and it doesn’t mean that they can’t have what is being offered. So you can allow them to implement the IEP and still not agree with it. So your child does not have to go without services while you argue it. What else happens in the IEP meetings that could explain to parents it’s, it’s funny, because you talked about the zoom IEP meetings, and I agree, I think they’re a little bit better. I think they come across as a little more formal to them when we’re in you know, in person, but I don’t think that’s a bad thing.
Laura Heneghan, Special Education Attorney 29:40
I think it’s important for parents to know things that are said sometimes that are not okay. Like, we don’t do that here, or we don’t see that behavior in school. So therefore, we’re not considering it as an issue and both of those things are not okay. The fact that they don’t do something at that school. The whole purpose of the idea is to individualize an educational program. So if there’s something that your child needs, they need to provide it. And if they haven’t provided it in the past, that doesn’t mean that they can’t provide it now, and the we don’t see that behavior here. Well, everybody knows that a lot of kids can hold it together through a school day. And when they get home, and they’re comfortable, and they’re in their safe place, they totally lose it. And that’s where, you know, we think we said earlier, if if you have work samples and photographs of your children, video, video can be very powerful. Bringing a show or video share your screen on zoom, of the behaviors that you’re seeing at home. Because as Dana said earlier, education is not just academic, but these pieces of a child need to be touched on.
Dana Jonson 30:42
Yeah, and my other favorite my other favorite line is all kids do them. Well, that I’m not talking about all kids, we’re talking about this student or this child. And an example I like to use is, you know, the child who needs to be maybe the the infant that needs physical therapy to learn how to crawl and walk, right, you don’t wait until they don’t crawl or they don’t walk before you decide to give them assistance, right? If you know that that’s going to be challenging, then you provide those supports, so that they can learn and that is the same thing in the IEP process, which is when school says but fall no kids can spell right now we don’t expect any children to spell. Okay, but does every child have some form of barrier that’s going to prohibit them from learning the way the other kids will, because if we know that, then we should be working on spelling, you know, before that becomes an issue before it becomes a problem. And I find that actually, assessments and evaluations are great way to resolve conflict in the IEP meeting, if you’re seeing something your district is not or vice versa, then you should be asking for assessments, whether they’re formal, standardized assessments or for informal classroom assessments, some way of observing and determining whether these skills are where everyone says that they are
Laura Heneghan, Special Education Attorney 32:04
agreed, and you as a parent have a right to say where you feel like your child is not maybe up to where they should be and requesting evaluations in that area, it’s not limited to what the school sees as weaknesses or wants to do, they’ve got a test in any area of a suspected disability. Right. Important point there too, is there’s an awful lot of acronyms that fly around the room very comfortably with people who are employed by the school and apparent may not have any reason to know a lot of those acronyms. So if they say something like push in, pull out this and that, stop them and ask what does that mean? And I like to say, what does that look like in the classroom? What do you mean push in or pull out or, you know, is my child going to be in a different location, and all of these things are things that the staff already knows ahead of time, they know, when they say pull out, they’re gonna bring them to a resource room, and they’re going to give them special education. And they’re, the parent may not know that. So just be clear on what going back to what does your child’s day look like? What’s the environment? Who’s teaching them? And know what what the services will look like being delivered in a classroom? Well, that’s
Dana Jonson 33:12
a good point, too, because what does that look like? You said that there’ll be pulled out and put into a resource room and I know a lot of kids are pulled out and and taught in an alcove under the stairway in the hallway, you know, so and for some environments that might work, you know, it might, it might be too detrimental to pull that child to the other end of the building. And, you know, take 10 minutes to get there and then have five minutes of services and have to go back it might make sense in that situation. However, if you’re under the stairwell, and it’s time of transition for a different class, and they’re plowing through every day that you get your services, it’s not going to work. So I think asking what that looks like really is critical. And considering that in the specific situation. And understanding that just because it is or is not going to a separate room doesn’t mean it’s okay. You could say okay, then I don’t want it in the hallway. I want it in this substantially separate classroom. But maybe when your child’s in there, there’s something else going on in that classroom. So really understanding what that looks like. There’s no automatic This is better than that. You have to really know what it looks like and not be afraid to ask, what does it look like? Or can I come see, if you’re suggesting my child go to that classroom, I want to know what that classroom looks like. And it’s not always necessary. But if you feel that’s critical to your child’s program, then you need to be able to observe it and see it. Also I think if there are evaluations that are presented that you haven’t had a chance to fully absorb those results that you know exactly who to contact to ask your questions and how to contact them because if it’s not a person who’s on your child’s team, you may not know how to reach them automatically, or the best way to reach them and or you may just not be on their radar. Because it might be somebody else in the district. And that does happen. And I
Laura Heneghan, Special Education Attorney 35:03
think the answer that sometimes outside of school evaluators are used for evaluations. And as a parent, you want to make sure that the person who did that outside evaluation is able to participate in that meeting. Because having somebody within the school district interpret an out of District evaluation can result in not accurate reporting. And I don’t want to say that, that it’s the fault of the school. But when you’re writing the report, and you’re interpreting it, you’re owning it, there’s they’re two different things. So you want the source, you want the person who met with your child. And in school, that may happen to you I have because of what we talked about earlier, where they don’t have everybody available, the person who did the evaluation may not be the person speaking to the evaluation in your IP, you want to make sure you have access to the person who did the evaluation in the event that you have any questions or follow
Dana Jonson 35:51
up. That’s a great point. And I always check that invitation. This goes back to preparing for the IEP meeting, go back and check the invitation. And if anyone who did assessments or evaluations are not on that invitation, then go back to your school and make that request and ask if they are invading them. Sometimes, outside evaluators charge an additional cost to attend an IEP meeting. And so you want to find out if your school district is going to pay them to attend. And that actually might go back to the the IEP meeting where you discuss the evaluation, if you are requesting an outside evaluation, or agreeing to an outside evaluation, you want to make sure that part of that agreement is that that evaluator comes to the IEP meeting to discuss their results. I’ve been in IEP meetings where we have other people interpret them. And even if they are qualified and able and had a conversation with the actual evaluator, they may be able to do a really good job of presenting the findings, but they can’t answer any questions. They just can’t they didn’t do the evaluation. So, you know, when you say, Well, what is the scatter in these sub tests mean, if they didn’t implement the value? They can’t answer those questions. So that’s another Matt, you know, making sure those people are there. Or as I don’t remember which one of you said it postpone the PBT or the IEP meeting, I say, we have to continue, let’s break here and continue later, when we can have that person. As part of the meeting, I find that a lot of the problems we get when we want to postpone or extend, continue IP meetings is we’re up against deadlines at the school. So they’ve scheduled your IP meeting on the last day, they can legally hold their IP meeting. Yeah, what what do you guys do in that case? What do we recommend to parents when the school says I’m sorry? We can’t continue this. We have to complete it today and make an AP? That’s a good question. I think, you know, if the parents are in agreement to continuing the meeting, then I think it’s okay. You know, I think you’ve you’ve met, you’ve started the process, you met the date, if the parents, you know, if the parents need more time to meaningfully participate, as Laura spoke to earlier, then they need that’s what they need. And so I think, you know, I think it’s fine to, I always say a continuation PPT, I never say you know, another one or postpone it, I say, let’s Schedule A continuations, because so that’s, that’s, I think it’s fine. If that’s what the parents need. That’s what they need. And I think that gives the spool the ability to say they met their burden of a deadline, because they need to report things to the state. And even if a parent agrees, sometimes the school pushes back saying, we have to report this, we don’t want to show that we’re dealing with, but if it’s a continuation, then they may have met that obligation. So it’s just part of the discussion. And it makes me think about, you know, parent demeanor, and a PPT. And I think different people have different thoughts on this you’re going in, and it is something that can be a little adversarial, but you are extreme. And you should all be there in the best interest of the child that you’re talking about. And I think as a parent, you want to go in and be polite, but direct, and you want to be honest about you know, what your thoughts are on your child, you are certainly able to thank the team for what they’ve done while pointing out that there are problems with your child’s program. And and I do find that being kind of nice, but direct is a good way to keep them the flow of the meeting going well. And then when you run into those issues, like well, we haven’t talked about this, can we continue? The whole team’s gonna be more open to things if there’s kind of a collaborative feel to the meeting?
39:30
Yeah, yeah. And
Dana Jonson 39:31
when you add in, you know, I think when you ask for something as well, when you’re if you stay polite and direct when you ask for something, and the team denies it, and says, No, you can politely say, Please make sure that it reflects that I made this request and your your response. So and I think that it’s just you know, it becomes just kind of like there’s a business side to the relationship as well as for you. It’s also the personal side, because it’s your kid so Yeah, and I think those are all very good points because I know that sometimes when we know an IEP meeting is going to be longer than, you know, the 45 minutes that’s been allotted. And that can start a lot of arguments before the IEP meeting has even started. And I find that arguing over getting more time for the IEP meeting, it starts things off. Yes, make the request, if you think you’re going to have a two hour IEP meeting, and the school district is only scheduling 45 minutes, and you say every IEP meeting we’ve ever had for my child every year has been two hours, and why are they doing this? It is upsetting and it is annoying for lack of a better term. And it doesn’t necessarily meet their obligations, but it’s not the hill you want to die on either, you know, I would say make that request, make it more than once. If it’s denied, then in the IEP meeting, you say there’s no way I can I can meaningfully participate unless we have another meeting we need to extend this we didn’t get to this. I remember being at an IEP meeting for one of my children, we never talked about ies why we never talked, I mean, all these pieces that were really critical, well, then they’re you know, that’s on the school, they have to cover all of those topics and all of those components of the IEP. So if they didn’t cover it, how can you possibly accept the program? Wow. So it’s going to have to extend. So yeah, and I think that’s part of it. You know, we as parents of children with disabilities, you know, we’ve learned how to be efficient, we’ve learned how to anticipate when the problems are going to come and how we’re going to handle them. That is our entire life. Still, when we see something like an IEP meeting, and we say, we know this is going to be a problem, and we want to fix it. Now it can be super annoying, when no one will listen to us. Absolutely. And as we mentioned, these are these are emotional meetings, and I have been in so many ppts where the parent cries, and then they profusely apologize for crying. And if you search the internet, you’ll see don’t credit PPT it’s okay to credit PPT. This is your child you’re talking about. And you are the most invested person at that meeting. So if you are so overwhelmed with emotion, because of whatever’s going on, and you have to cry, cry, it’s not negative against you, if anything to me, it’s showing that you’re really evolved. I have cried ppts for my own child. You know, anyone on this call is probably saying the same thing. Yep. Yeah, I’ve cried. I’ve stormed out. I’ve I have not been the model parents. So I won’t speak to that part. Or as my attorney can attest, I definitely I definitely have clients that have cried, I’ve cried at my my child’s PPT. I mean, when we were in person they used to have, you know, in the middle of the conference room table, they would have tissues there, and they’re there for a reason. You know, I think it’s normal. You know, that’s when you can ask, as we talked about already, you can ask for a break to just step out and take a few deep breaths and step back and say, Okay, yeah, I agree. And and, and I think we have to remember that while it’s really emotionally charged, for us, this may be like the 50th IEP meeting the staff have had this week. And if they were as emotionally involved and invested as you are, they may not be able to get their jobs done. So I think it’s also really critical that parents understand it’s frustrating, because you are the most invested person and and so you are, you really are the only person at the table with that level of investment. And, and that’s hard, and it can be lonely. And it can be frustrating. And I’ve heard parents say that I just want them to care more, I just want the team to care more. And we would all like that. But I think if that’s the goal, what you really want is an appropriate program for your child. And that that’s where your energy should be spent in in during the IEP meeting, or so I
Laura Heneghan, Special Education Attorney 43:38
think so. And I think that brings up an important point, too, that you are there to get an appropriate program for your child, not the best program that can be offered or another adjective that describes it, because that’s not the legal standard. And though as a parent, you’re going in, and you’re not an attorney, if you say I want this, because it’s the best for my child, you’re undermining your own objectives, because that’s not the standard they’re gonna look at, they’re gonna say, what’s appropriate for your child?
Dana Jonson 44:04
Right? And what that mean, is a big question, too. I mean, we have to go through a lot of case law. And and we as attorneys have a better handle on what is appropriate as, as do advocates, because we are constantly following how this definition is creating and evolving through through the court system, which is how that happens. But it is important. And I have had meetings where the board’s attorneys have said to me, you know, the parents just want something they want what’s best, they want what’s best, they don’t want what’s appropriate. And I feel like if the parents didn’t want what’s best for their child, or wouldn’t you be calling social services on them? So the term we use regularly and make sense in the real world, but in the legal world, it has this other connotation. So you know, again, that goes back to understanding special ed understanding your child’s disability, understanding all these other components, this whole other new job that you have to understand how to navigate gait these meetings, but at the same time, you know, you are looking just because you want it doesn’t mean it’s what’s best. Right. And the way I see it usually represented as a non legal way is you don’t get a Cadillac if a Pontiac will do. And that’s kind of the, you know, it puts it into terms that everybody can understand that everybody would love a catalog. That would be great. But the Pontiacs going to get me where I need to be. And that’s kind of how it’s going to be looked at. Yeah, exactly what your child is entitled to, is an appropriate program that is catered to their visual needs that help them make meaningful progress in light of their circumstances. Exactly, exactly. So to that end, now, we’ve left the IEP meeting now what is it over? Are we done? No, no, we’re gonna drink.
45:53
Now it’s not over.
Dana Jonson 45:56
Know, and I certainly before, while it’s fresh in your mind, that to me is the best time to either voice record yourself, make notes type into a computer, your recollection of what happened at that meeting, if you had a note taker, go through the notes with them and make sure that you agree what happened at the meeting, because when it’s fresh in your memory, it’s going to be the best time to recollect everything that happened. Before we even leave the PPT at the very end, I always say if the person the facilitator is writing meeting doesn’t summarize the meeting themselves, I will say, so that we’re all on the same page, what I’m understanding that we all have agreed to today are and then I go through my bullet points and my notes on what we’ve agreed to what parents have requested and what’s been denied what we agreed that we’re following up on, I just, I just I summarize it myself. Or if the facilitator doesn’t, usually a facilitator will do it. And I kind of listen and check off my my notes along but I would do that before the meeting. And yeah, I wouldn’t have to do it again. Oh, floor. I think that’s, that’s really good advice. And just to clarify, some ppts. Some districts around here have facilitators, which are people who run the ppts, some states may not have them, some districts don’t have them. A lot of times, it’s a supervisor, or somebody in administration that runs the meeting. But when we say facilitator, it’s really the person that’s keeping the meeting going and meeting all the legally required pieces of the PPT. And that person may or may not be familiar with your child, but their goal is to or their job is to make sure that all the boxes are ticked, as you go through the meeting. Yeah, I always recommend that parents review that document really well, when they get it to that IP and make sure that all the things that you talked about are reflected. And that goes back to learning how to read the document, right, making sure that that the things you thought of were in there, and whether they are or not, I think it’s always appropriate if you feel that anything you presented wasn’t properly reflected in the IEP, that you follow up with your school district and and send them in writing a letter or an email saying, These are the pieces that we did not see in the IEP. And we would like this attached to the IP as an addendum or submitted to my child’s educational file. And that way, even if it’s not on the IEP, anybody who looks at the file is going to see the parents concerns from the IEP. I think that’s such an important point, because you you spend an hour to two hours to five hours talking about all of the challenges that your child is facing and all the vulnerabilities that they have. And then you receive the IEP and there’s a tiny box that says parent concerns and it may say, parent is happy with the program being provided. Well, what did you just spend two hours talking about the parent obviously had concerns. So as Dana said, put that in writing and ask that to be submitted as an addendum to the IEP or in your child’s educational record? Absolutely. I think the the deef is a big part of what I do. Parents, once they get their draft IEP, we sit down and I teach them, I go through it, and I say this is what you’re looking for. And I said, these are my notes. This is you know, this is their notes, and this is your notes. And did that, you know, do we all agree with everything that’s written on this MIDI meds, and there’s usually mistakes because as Laura said, these are long meetings. And so you know, we will write back and say please correct bla bla bla, as, as Dana pointed out and say, attach this as an addendum to the IEP or in the educational file. But yeah, I think the parent input section that Laura talked about, yeah, I always whenever I get a new client and I look at their IEP, that’s the first section I go to, and it always says something like, parent agrees or parent is happy with the program. And I was like, No, no, that’s not what it should say. So that’s essentially the point, Stacy, because those parents concern that section isn’t about the parents concerns with the IEP. That’s not what it says. Right? It’s exactly what parents concerns with their child with what they need to learn with, what behaviors they’re having, or not having, or whatever it is. It’s not meant to be the parents have concerned about what we wrote. That’s not what it is. So it’s not the place to defend the IEP. And I feel like sometimes, that’s what that’s the way it’s written as well, the parents are happy. That’s not the place for that. And the parents can have a bazillion concerns and be happy with their IEP, they’re not mutually exclusive activity leave now my perience.
Stacey Tié, Special Education Advocate 50:36
So I know I talk. I tell parents, I think this is your section. And it’s such a tiny box. It’s easy to miss, you know, and at least in Connecticut’s IEP, I know different states have different IPS. But it’s such a tiny box, and I tell parents like this is doors, this is what you get to say about your child, you get to dictate this box, that’s yours. So and it’s not big enough,
Dana Jonson 50:59
that I always say, it’s not big enough. So you need to add, add, you know, send in your letter, have it added to the IEP or to the to the documentation. And I think what’s really important about everything we’re saying here is that none of this is meant as only if you’re in dispute, or only if you have a concern. You know, my my expectation is that parents have concerns even when they’re happy with their program. And especially I think when parents are happy with their program, it is even more important to be documenting what is working and what is not, because no program is perfect. And a no student is going to automatically make progress on every goal and objective. So I find that even when parents are pleased with their IPS, that’s when or I should say when they are pleased with their IPS, that’s when I see the least amount of documentation. And that’s a problem too, because there might be pieces that, you know, were discussed that every IEP meeting that just weren’t brought in, and now something’s gone wrong. And the parent is saying, well, the last 10 years, we always had this discussion, it just wasn’t in the IEP because I didn’t think there was a problem. Well, it’s not in the IEP, it didn’t happen. That’s important for parents to know that if you have concerns, you can request a PPT, you know, a meeting to discuss this, because there are times that we get clients. And the reality is we get clients when things go wrong, we don’t really see the ones where the parents are happy with the program, we see where it took a left turn and something’s going wrong. And if I look at the last minute P and it was a year from the the annual, there’s a problem right there, because there should be more vacation if there are issues with a child. And in that formal format. There can obviously be a lot of informal communications going back and forth. But if you’ve got significant issues with your program, that you’re hiring an advocate or an attorney, there should be more ppts between annuals. Yeah, and that that brings up a good point. You know, one of the other things I talk to clients a lot about is the difference between a team meeting and an IEP meeting because there is a difference. And a team meeting, I always tell parents, that’s not for lack of better word and legal meeting. It’s not on the record. There’s no mid minutes recorded. So I always tell parents when they go to a team meeting that, you know, just like you said, Laura, earlier, as soon as you’re done with that meeting, quickly summarize everything you guys discussed in your team meeting and send a follow up email that says, you know, thank you for meeting with me, this is what we talked about. This is what we agreed to, and and put it in email because as Dana, as you said, if it’s not in writing, it didn’t happen. And I think there is I don’t know if you guys want to talk from a legal standpoint, the difference between a team meeting that PPT meeting or IEP meeting? Well, an IEP meeting is to discuss and potentially make changes to the IP, which is a legal document. And you can only make those changes in an IP meeting. So well, I shouldn’t say that you can make changes to your IP through amendment and without holding a meeting. But that’s different than making changes in a team meeting. So there may be times where it’s appropriate to make a quick change or something that needs to be addressed in the AIP that you don’t need a full discussion for both the school and you agree you don’t need a full PVT for it or IP meeting. So you can go ahead and make that change. But as a rule, you don’t make those changes in team meetings. You don’t hold the meetings or discuss progress and updates and you could discuss at a team meeting something you want to bring to the IEP meeting that that may be appropriate to say okay, here’s the list of things that we as a team want to discuss in the IEP meeting. And that’s not predetermination that’s just deciding these are concerns or areas that need to be further investigated. Now we’ve we’ve followed up we’ve done all that what what would be your top red flags for parents to reach out and call an advocate or call an attorney and it is different Because I know Stacy that many times you get clients who are not necessarily in dispute, that’s not the case. They a lot of times parents, it’s just a tough game, you know, maybe it’s just tough, and they need somebody else to help them navigate the system. And, you know, be that note taker, and you’re not, you know, I mean, it’s way more than a note taker, but you know, somebody to make sure those things happen in the meeting. I mean, for me, and I’ve said this a million times, when I had an advocate at the meeting with me, then I could lose my mind, and they could make sure everything got done that was supposed to get done. And so, you know, there are lots of reasons but what would be a reason that you would say, you definitely have to what, what are your top red flags for parents? And I think, a really easy one, if the school brings an attorney, when you bring an advocate, you need to step up your game, and I’ve heard that happen.
55:51
Yes, I think if
Dana Jonson 55:53
I if I go to an if I go to an IEP meeting, and the district’s brought their attorney, I, I say for the record, this parent is not represented by an attorney, we will you can either leave. Or we can continue or we will stop this meeting until the parent goes and finds an attorney representation. Yeah, I would say that it’s changed a little bit because of COVID, that a lot of things that were coming in before were and something like bullying. Bullying is something that can affect every aspect of your child’s behavior. And you might talk about it now up and it’s not being addressed. That is, to me a big red flag or when your child is being pulled out of class so much that they’re not getting any benefit for being with their general education peers. That’s something I’m concerned me a lot. We’re in an interesting period now where parents are getting a kind of look behind the curtain as to how their children are really performing. And some are seeing that they’re thriving in this video format. And some are seeing that my child can’t read or my child can’t write, or my child is so happy to not have to go back to school because their social anxiety is so high. And those are issues, I think that as a parent, you can be seeing now that you weren’t seeing before, that really have to be addressed there, the incidence of anxiety and depression amongst kids is skyrocketing. And it’s it’s really not going to change anytime soon. So those are some things I would really look out for and know that schools aren’t ready to deal with those things immediately, unless you start digging a little deeper, they might need some more supports when it comes to the emotional support of your child, they’re, they’re more readily able to deal with the academic pieces. So when the pieces are spill avoidance, or depression or social anxiety, that’s when I would really suggest even consulting a professional to see what can be done. Yeah, to see what differences I would add to that, that parents call me. I agree with everything you said. And I think parents call an expert advocate help, as you can do that, Dana, that, you know, when they feel overwhelmed when they feel like they can’t manage the structural and procedural side and the parental side of the meeting. And so I do have a lot of parents that just say to me just want to stop, I just want to talk about my kid. And I’m there, you know, just to make sure everything procedurally is going correctly and to maintain the record. And a lot of what I do is maintaining the record. And you know, a breakdown communication is a is a big part of where I get called in. A lot of times when there’s a breakdown of communication between the team, they’re not at the point where things are really adversarial. But there’s some communication breakdown that they need some help mediating, and they need somebody to kind of step in and kind of help bring the team back together again. Because when I find it’s these little things that happen that are little mistakes, whether on purpose or not knowing we don’t need to discuss their intention. But the little things is what starts to be a parent feel that they don’t trust their their team. And it starts to make them doubt the team and it makes them feel like they need help. And that’s usually when I golf. Yeah, that’s and I think just to add one of the first red flags that a parent may see. So if you’re sitting in one of your first meetings, and the team is reviewing the evaluations, and in your head, the thought bubble is Who are they talking about? This is not the child that I know, whether academically socially, emotionally, whatever it may be. And that may mean more evaluations are required. And schools sometimes are really cooperative with that, and sometimes really not corporative with that. But if they’re giving you a profile of a child that you really don’t recognize, it’s time to reach out and make sure that you’re getting precise evaluations on what your child’s issues are. I always find that if the school district is reminding you as the parent of your due process rights, if they are saying things like well, you know, you can just review the due process rights or Yeah, you know what, we could just go to a mediation you could file with the state No matter how casually or nicely they present to you, if a school is reminding you what your due process rights are, that’s a sign. And I find that nine times out of 10, the people working with your child do have the best intentions, and sometimes their hands are tied. So if someone on your team is giving you any kind of inclination that you may want to pursue your due process rights, that to me is the moment to call an advocate or an attorney and just consult. And you know what, maybe you don’t need one that does and I think that goes to also the teacher that kind of catches you on the side at dismissal and says, I have a concern about something but I can’t say anything in the meeting. That’s a huge red
1:00:45
flag that goes along with what Dana saying.
Dana Jonson 1:00:47
Yes, exactly. Because if if the people working with your child for any reason, do not feel comfortable speaking up in an IEP meeting, then you know that you’re going to need some form of assistance in this, something’s already gone awry, that you need to address though. Thank you guys so much. I feel like there’s so much information here. And that this is probably going to be a much longer episode than I had anticipated. But I think we’re going into IP season. So I’m hopeful that this was helpful, and can provide some comfort, some support for preparation and preparation. Yeah. So I do hope that this IP prep suggestions have been helpful. And thank you guys, both for joining me.
1:01:34
Thank you.
Dana Jonson 1:01:35
Thank you. Thank you so much for joining me today. Please don’t forget to subscribe to this podcast so you don’t miss any new episodes. And if there’s anything you want to hear a comment on, go to our Facebook page and drop me a note there. I’ll see you next time here on need to know with Dana Jonson have a fabulous day
