Justyna & Meghan from The Hangout Spot join me today to discuss how kids are adjusting to “back to normal” back to school! While I wouldn’t necessarily call it “normal” we are going back and most kids haven’t had an opportunity to flex their social muscles in a while.  They will need time and patience while they acclimate. Justyna & Meghan talk about skills students will need and what you you and your kids can starts working on now.  

Justyna & Meghan were on a year ago, right after they opened The Hangout Spot to talk about how they are using ABA methods to help kids learn how to “hangout”: 

https://specialed.law/wanna-hangout-i-know-just-the-spot/

In 2020 Justyna & Meghan opened The Hangout Spot, a behavior analytic social skills development center where all children have a right to meaningful relationships with others. They strive to eliminate barriers to friendship and empower children to be socially successful across the lifespan using the principles of Applied Behavior Analysis. Everything they do is rooted in research, empirically validated, and proven to work. They conceptualize critical, previously considered “tricky to teach” skills through a scientific framework. In doing so, they achieve socially-significant change for kids by providing the support they need to develop real connections with other people beyond the walls of The Hangout Spot.  

You can find Justyna & Meghan and learn more about The Hangout Spot here: 

https://www.thehangoutspotllc.com/

TRANSCRIPT (not proofread)

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

child, kids, people, work, social skills, hangout, special ed, autism, conversations, teach, mask, parents, justine, question, rules, school, person, vaccinated, families, pandemic

SPEAKERS

Meghan Cave, M.Ed. BCBA LBA (CT), Dana Jonson, Justyna Balzar, M.Ed. BCBA LBA (CT),

Dana Jonson  00:02

Hello, and welcome to special ed on special ed, where special ed experts discuss special ed topics for special ed parents. I’m your host, Dana Jonson, and I’ve experienced special ed from many angles. I’m a special ed attorney in private practice, a former special ed teacher and administrator, a current mom to four children who’ve all experienced special ed. And I myself have ADHD and dyslexia. I’ll provide straightforward information about your rights and your school’s obligations, information from other professionals on many topics, as well as tips and tricks for working with your school district. My goal is to empower you through your journey. But before we begin, here’s my disclaimer. The information in this podcast is provided for general informational and entertainment purposes only, and may not reflect the current law in your jurisdiction at the time you’re listening. Nothing in this episode, create an attorney client relationship, nor is it legal advice. Do not act or refrain from acting on the basis of any information included in or accessible through this episode without seeking appropriate legal or other professional advice on particular facts and circumstances at issue from a lawyer or service provider licensed in your state country or other appropriate licensing jurisdiction. Okay, let’s get started. Hello, and thank you for joining me today on special ed on special ed. This is my first episode of special ed on special ed or as special ed on special ed. So I’m very excited. And today I have just Deena and Megan from the hangout spot. We’re going to talk to us about getting ready for getting back to school. And just Dina and Megan, you were here about a year and a half ago, I think we spoke for the first time, and you had just opened the hangout spot. Because as we were discussing the perfect time to start a new business is right in the middle of a global pandemic. Right. Cool. Coincidentally, the business that you were opening was something that we desperately needed and turned out to need even more so in the pandemic. And now that we are coming out of this pandemic and looking to go back into school, I’m not gonna say normal, but more normalized. school year with everybody going back, I was hoping you guys could talk to us about some of the things you are seeing children need to get ready for the school year. But before we dive into that, I would love it if you guys would give us a little background and just tell us about how this year has been and how the hangout spot has developed and what it is you do with the hangout spot. So what what is the hangout spot?

Meghan Cave, M.Ed. BCBA LBA (CT)  02:32

Well, thank you. First of all, for having us, we’re so excited to be back. And things here the hangout spot has been really exciting. So for those of you who don’t know us, we are a behavior analytics Social Skills Development Center. And so we have come to a place in our careers where we’re deeply dedicated to two core principles. The first is always ensuring that our children and families have the gold standard of care, and and making sure that every decision we make, we’re doing the very best we can for our kids right in that moment. And that was great and wonderful. At the time, when we were opening the hangout spot out, we knew there were so many tremendous providers out there and really wanted to fill a gap in services. So in connecting with local families, we were hearing stories that were just heartbreaking things like my child is 13 years old and doesn’t have a best friend and has never been invited to a birthday party. And we became deeply inspired to use our science of Applied Behavior Analysis, which is essentially just the science of learning and behavior to teach kids how to have meaningful real reciprocal relationships with other people. So we work with kids ages birth through young adulthood, which is new and different, I think, up to 18. But we have expanded to support young adult populations, if their needs fit within our scope of practice. And something that makes us really unique is that we do not require a diagnosis for enrollment. So we support of course, children with autism spectrum disorder, children with anxiety, and children with learning disabilities. But we also serve kids who may just be struggling socially and may not have any identified need, but just need that extra support to find their their tribe and find their people. So maybe I’ll toss it over to Justine to tell you a little bit about where we were and where we are now over the past year because yes, we did quit our very stable jobs in the middle of a pandemic. Just Tina can paint the Badger for litigation, how far we’ve come. We have come a long way. It’s It’s crazy how we’ve grown from basically month to month and how much the need has just come to light. We always knew that there was a great need. But I feel like COVID just exacerbated the social needs because it turned everybody’s worlds upside down. And I know we talked about that the last time we spoke, and it certainly is still the case. Now, we started back last summer, just getting up and running virtually because everything was still shut down. And we didn’t know whether or not there would potentially be a desire and a motivation to to come in person. And because there was a lot of fear around getting together in person, and rightfully so. And we had a very, very successful virtual summer. And what we found was that by the end of the summer families, and as things started to open up a little bit, families just were coming to us and saying, Get us in person, our child really, really needs to see other kids physically, we had great success using the virtual model. But at the end of the day, no matter how you put it, there is really no substitute to being next to someone physically, as opposed to being on a screen. Yeah. And I think what I liked so much also about your approach to it, which was we want this to be normalized, right? We want it to be just a normal place that kids are going to hang out. It’s not like I had therapy. It’s, you know, I went and hung out with my friends, hence the name, the hangout spot. Yeah, yeah, our big motivation and branding. And in thinking about what we wanted the hangout spot to be was to develop a place that was stigma free, right, because at the end of the day hearing, I’m I’m a 30 year old adult. And there are definitely things that I can do better in terms of how I relate to other people. In fact, Justine and I have these conversations on a weekly basis. I personally want to do better and better as the people who teach social skills, right. So we could all benefit whether we have a disability or not, and no matter what stage of the lifespan run. So the name, the hangout spot was intended to be a place that kids could be proud to say they’re going, and certainly for children who has bad social experiences or history of failures in regards to interactions with their peers. Initially, that can be hard. And that can be frustrating. But we’re really proud to say that we focus very intimately on getting to know our kids and who they are as a person, so that we can build upon kids passions and interests to first transform a child from somebody who may be avoided enough people or may think that people are something that they don’t want to be a part of, because they’re scary and hard and unpredictable, to a child who comes running into the door asking what we’re going to play today. And of course, that looks different for our four year olds than it does for our 17 year olds. But that is at the core of our mission and something that we’ve worked really hard to accomplish, whether we’re hanging out on the screen or hanging out in person,

Dana Jonson  07:54

when I like that you guys weren’t afraid to keep going virtual because I think it was easy for a lot of us to say, well, this isn’t working. So just throw the baby out with the bathwater, and we won’t do it at all. And you guys are determined and said no kids need this instruction, whether it’s coming through the screen or not. And we’re just going to plow forward and it definitely paid off. So what are you guys seeing now I know that every year whether whether children have social skills issues or not, you know, we’ve got to prep for school. I know my kids, if I don’t have back to school shopping by a certain time all set up, the anxiety starts, right. So everybody has their own rituals and things that they need to do and getting used to wearing shoes again, and showering every day, you know, stuff that we put on hold in the summer. So, but what other kinds of things because we’re coming off of this COVID world, and you know, we can’t pretend it didn’t happen, right? For 10 that we didn’t just have a whole year and a half of being completely and totally isolated. So what are you finding is last time I spoke to you, we were literally talking about teaching children to put masks on their face, like just get out on their face. So I believe we’re past that. For the most part, but what are we seeing now? What are we seeing that are typical back to school things, but maybe that are accentuated? Or? Or more so now?

Justyna Balzar, M.Ed. BCBA LBA (CT),  09:26

Yeah, that’s that’s a really great question. So one of the biggest differences and something to prepare kids for, in addition to you know, the, the typical things that we encounter from year to year is starting to talk about the school year and how it’s going to be different and how things may change because as much as we’ve been very, very fortunate to have regulations relaxed because people have more people have gotten the vaccine and people are more comfortable and able to Go in person and meet up in person. In some instances without mass. The reality is and I think the announcement was made by the governor right. And again, that was that the governor or the CDC, by the CDC that the recommendation for school in the new year was that kids would have to be masked again. Right. So how do we go from a situation where we were in school, hybrid, virtual then fully in person wearing masks, then going through a summer where we weren’t wearing masks? Now going back to school, potentially full time, but wearing masks again? So this idea of teaching kids how to make that discrimination? Sorry,

Dana Jonson  10:43

I’m laughing It’s it’s like a lot listening to it. It seems like almost more than what we did. I don’t know. Yeah, it makes any sense at all. But it’s like, suddenly, it sounds even worse.

Meghan Cave, M.Ed. BCBA LBA (CT)  10:58

Yeah, yeah. What happens when you articulate it out loud, right?

Justyna Balzar, M.Ed. BCBA LBA (CT),  11:03

It’s just musing, right? I mean, it’s confusing to us. And you know, we’re at a seat right now, where with this new variant, I just remember going into stories most recently, and people, majority of people are masking again. Right. So how do we teach our kids to discriminate when it’s okay, and safe not to mask and when they should be masking? and getting them used to potentially the idea of being back in school fully masked? Right? Yeah, I think, I think thinking about that, do you know, one of the things to bring bring it real life, right? This is particularly relevant for our kids who are a little bit older, right, or middle schoolers and high schoolers. And we see it all the time. So we have children who are eligible for the vaccine, so moved on, if you haven’t, right. But for those who have, and who had, who were set up with the expectation, once you get your vaccine, and you’ve gone through that whole process, guess what, you get to go grocery shopping with mom and dad, without your mask on some of our kids, not all of them. But some of our kids have had that experience. And so for kids for whom that wearing that mask is uncomfortable, or limits their ability to communicate or presents other barriers, to them feel like they went through that process, and got to the end, but the reward of going to the grocery store without it on, and then having to say, Sorry, but you went through that process, but unfortunately, you’re gonna have to wear it again. And we see the outcome of that, or the byproduct of that. I don’t know if that’s the right word, but the impact of that coming out in the way our kids are talking to us. So we are seeing our middle schoolers, and our hair schoolers come in and ask questions, you know, do I still have to wear this thing? Why do I have to wear this thing? That’s interesting. I think it is. Yeah, it

Dana Jonson  12:54

is confusing. And that’s funny, you say that, because I was I was thinking about that with my children, I have a couple kids are a little concrete. And if you tell them a something’s going to go a certain way, and it doesn’t go that way. I’m a liar. And it just adds a whole other level to the activity, you know, because now I’ve lost their trust. And I know that sounds, you know, to some parents, that might sound silly, but if you are a parent of a child, for whom that actually makes a huge difference in your day to day activities, then you know what I’m saying? And, you know, once my kid is like, you told me, it’s gonna go some way it didn’t go that way. I’m not going to trust you again. So now it just doesn’t matter if I wear my mask or not. So I definitely get that component. Are you finding that kids are excited about going back to school full time? What are you hearing from from your children? Cuz I have a mix. I have kids who were like, I don’t care if it’s the bubonic plague. I’m getting out there to see my friends. And then I have other kids who are like, Yeah, no, I’m good. Good right here. never leaving my room.

Meghan Cave, M.Ed. BCBA LBA (CT)  14:05

We’ve been thinking a lot about what we’ve been referencing as the continuum of impact. So the continuum of impact for us is, at the the least intense end right? We have kids who had to learn a whole new social rulebook, and also a school robot, right. So a whole new way. What school looks like,

Dana Jonson  14:26

that’s a really good way of putting it a whole new social rulebook. Yeah, the playbook a completely

Meghan Cave, M.Ed. BCBA LBA (CT)  14:31

Yeah. And it continues to change. It changes six times a day. If you look at the news. It’s a frequently changing robots. So we have kids who really didn’t have that many barriers and had some pretty typical development who had to learn a whole new set of rules and keep having to learn new set of rules. Then we have kids who had barriers to start and learning was a process to start and learning requires repetition and practice and A lot of effort to get those rules down, right. And then you’re in a situation where you took the rulebook out, and you threw it out the window. And they had these barriers and they had to learn new rules, then I think at the most extreme end, what we’re seeing, that’s incredibly sad, is kids who are have learned that people are something to be afraid of. Because people can make you sick and getting sick can make you die. And so that that conditioning process has taught some of our learners that people are scary school scary, and that is not somewhere I want to go. And so I think there’s this and just, you know, you know, jump in here, but I think we’re seeing this right. So we have some kids who are literally running in here, like, so excited to see their friends. And we’ve been talking about after schools for since like, I don’t know, last September, right. So, and that’s been really exciting. We have some kids who I actually was telling this story this morning, we had a child who found out that somebody had had COVID a really, really long time ago, and couldn’t make that that understanding that that was a long time ago, and she’s safe. She’s a safe friend now. Right? And she was instantly terrified. Yeah, that she was in the room is that person, and that’s hard? Well, I

Dana Jonson  16:18

saw I got the alert that our COVID numbers went up. And I had a total PTSD flashback, suddenly, I was like, whoa. And so I can only imagine like, and we forget the kids simplify all that confusing information that we give them. And like I hadn’t, I hadn’t boiled it down to that people are scary. They can make me sick. I haven’t you know, that’s the very simple, they just boil down that message to its essence. And that’s what they’re learning. People are scary. And we don’t know what to expect from them. Because we don’t know. Are you vaccinated? Are you not? Does it matter? And now with all this new information about a new strain, that’s freaking everybody out? And it’s, it is it’s like that invisible thing you don’t know if it’s there. So you’re just Christ gently worried about it.

Justyna Balzar, M.Ed. BCBA LBA (CT),  17:05

Not only that, but it’s also creating kind of a rift right between kids and people who are vaccinated versus people who aren’t and and how does that impact the social landscape in terms of inclusion and interactions and skills and how you navigate those things, which is very complex in and of itself, because at the end of the day, it’s it is a very political issue, and very polarizing in addition to it being, you know, a medical need and the challenge that we are trying to overcome

Dana Jonson  17:38

well, and before if people didn’t get vaccinated, nobody knew, right, if your children weren’t vaccinated, you weren’t wearing a sign. And now say, if you’re not vaccinated, you don’t have to wear a mask. You know, I don’t we all know what happens with peer pressure. And kids, I don’t know I, I have a couple kids, I’ve seen what happens, you know, they don’t want to admit that something’s going on. And they don’t want to say they’re sick, they want to say they’re not sick, they want to be different. So they’re going to do what their friends are doing, regardless,

Meghan Cave, M.Ed. BCBA LBA (CT)  18:09

I think, provides us with a unique opportunity, though, to, in so many ways the pandemic has, right but this unique opportunity to teach the idea of respecting other people’s opinions, and respecting other people’s choices. And how do you navigate those conversations, I have to tell you, we have some teenage boys over here at the hangout spot who navigate these conversations in the most kind and respectful way that I haven’t seen adults do very often. Right. And so I think, the first time I saw them do it, right. One is vaccinated. One is not they’re very open about it, they got into this whole political discussion about the why. And each had very, very personal moving reasons and stories of why. And they sat at the table like two adults who had had a full life’s worth of experience and mutually respected each other’s opinions. And at the end, were like, Hey, you want to play Mario Kart? Right. And I think that is our goal for Yeah, and it looks different when I mean, those boys are teenagers, right? But I think it’s important to teach our eight year olds and our five year olds that whether it’s masks or vaccines or politics, or your parents rules about curfew, or you know, there’s there’s all these issues that are divisive, and yeah, we’re old and our kids they look like things like my my mom lets me watch rated R movies and mine doesn’t. But it’s the same skill of understanding how to bring people together and unite over those things rather than allow them to divide you. And it’s an important we have a unique opportunity to teach it right now.

Dana Jonson  19:47

That’s interesting because I think we implemented something cuz we’re a foster family, which I say all the time, but we’re so we have kids coming and going. We don’t have kids who know what our rules are. Right? So right you know, we try to be very like full Coming in, we say every household has different rules, right? We started that. But that was because we had other kids coming and going was that, you know, we made a very big point of saying every house has different rules. These are the rules that our house, which I think overall, though, has been helpful, because one of the things I’ve noticed is, a lot of times we as parents say, you, this is the way it is. We’re not saying it’s a choice, we’re not saying that’s our preference, we’re not saying, you know, we’re saying this is how it is we, as a family spend money on vacations, not private schools, that’s how it is. That’s that’s the right thing to do. So the kids think it’s the right thing to do. And they’re not, it’s not malicious. It’s not meant to be that way. That’s just how we present it. So I think you know, then all these rules change, and they don’t understand, if you tell them, they have a different rule than what you’re telling them as their parents are wrong. Right, where they don’t want to hear that either. So it’s, it’s so much more complicated than just putting on your mask. And, you know, like, all of these layers that were on peeling or whatever it is you do with an onion. So, you know, it’s it’s, it’s crazy. No, do you find Are you seeing not just the mask issue, but there are other issues out there about kids who have not been socialized? For a while? And are they? Are you seeing that come up?

Meghan Cave, M.Ed. BCBA LBA (CT)  21:23

Yeah. So we, again, it’s a spectrum, right. So we have some kids who had pods back in March, and they’ve been seeing kids the whole time within their pod, we have some kids who have not seen another child their age, for over a year, when we see that we see a variety of different

Dana Jonson  21:41

that is I that’s crazy.

Meghan Cave, M.Ed. BCBA LBA (CT)  21:43

Yeah, we had a few new friends this season, who really hadn’t had access to other children since March, right? What a lot of things to think about when because I want to think about here. What do you do in that situation? If that’s your kid, right? What do you do? And there’s a few things right. So there’s this idea of, first of all, reintroducing your child back into the social landscape. So you have to understand where your child is on that continuum, if your child is afraid, you need to go through the slow and supportive process of giving them access to people again, and teaching them that nothing bad happened when they were around other people. Because that’s how you teach children that this isn’t something scary, right? You can’t just if telling kids the rules, got them to understand and follow the rules, we would place in life, right. And that never works.

Dana Jonson  22:35

That’s not how it works. Like, you’re just saying, That’s wrong.

Meghan Cave, M.Ed. BCBA LBA (CT)  22:43

It’s the real life practice opportunity. So if your child is afraid of people, or hasn’t been around other people, and they’re going to be expected to go back to school in person five days a week, there needs to be a transition from nothing to everything, right? It might look like you starting to go to the park, maybe for 15 minutes, then you go for 30 minutes, then you’re gonna go somewhere, it’s a little bit more crowded, like I don’t know, the community pool and making things up, right, and then it’s gonna go to something a little more crowded, like an amusement park, that would be a very bizarre progression. But you get the idea yeah, of how you would slowly and systematically reintroduce your your child to that experience, because I think for kids who haven’t had that, that’s going to be tough. And I think there’s this element of increasing their access to people and increasing their exposure to people slowly and systematically. But there’s also this process of moving away from what they were doing before. And for some of our kids that might be things like playing video games all day, or being on their phone all day, right, or having free access to all of their favorite independent leisure activities. And so while there’s also this element of getting comfortable with people, again, there’s this element of if that’s what I’ve been doing for a year, and had free access to I got to learn how to feel okay, when I don’t have free access to those things all time. So

Dana Jonson  24:06

our devices an issue, like are you seeing that as an issue like devices and screen time?

Meghan Cave, M.Ed. BCBA LBA (CT)  24:12

Yeah, I think I think so for sure. I think we’re, we’re seeing kids who are and not for nothing, but technology is a way that our teenagers and I would starting to now think are pre teenagers. So it’s their primary mode of communication. Yeah, right. Regardless of whether or not we’re living in a pandemic, right, there’s always that whether we like it or not, right.

Dana Jonson  24:32

Somebody said to me once like this is how we meaning my generation, augment our communication. This is actually their communication.

Meghan Cave, M.Ed. BCBA LBA (CT)  24:42

Right? Right. It is and there’s this element of how it’s built to be addicting, right? Right. Built to deliver reinforcer so quickly that you’re literally addicted to it. And if you’ve been on it all day, not even all day, but like, I don’t know my phone told me I was on the on my screen for five hours the other day, which is totally insane. Um, oh yeah, and I’m an adult, like self monitoring skills. It’s an issue. And it’s particularly an issue if it’s what you’re used to. And you’re going to have to be used to not having it all the time. So definitely thinking about, you know, weaning our kids off of their technology, getting them back into the habit of not always having their phone accessible to them. But also recognizing that that was kids safety net for how to interact with other people and teaching them when that’s appropriate, and when it’s not going to be appropriate. And the rules are really nuanced, really nuanced. So

Dana Jonson  25:35

one of the things I’ve noticed, with my children, and maybe it’s, maybe it’s related to the devices or not, but I find that they’re not good at communicating in person, meaning that they’ll just walk up and start talking. And they’re too old for that, you know, it’s, that’s, that’s something I think of is like a really little kid does that just walks up and start stalking. But I think it’s related to I had a thought, I typed it out, I sent it, and then I got a response and nothing else that was going on mattered, there could have been mass chaos going on around me. And I still asked my question got my answer. So it was reinforced. You know, and so I feel like, they’re learning to communicate through this weird technology. And that’s what they’re doing in person. And I’m like, that’s not how you talk to somebody. Or, you know, if you call someone and they don’t know who you are, you have to say hello, like that in their address book, you have to explain who you are. And so like that,

Justyna Balzar, M.Ed. BCBA LBA (CT),  26:36

it’s a really good point. Because at the end of the day, how we communicate verbally with each other in person, how we communicate via some sort of virtual platform. And in person, right? So face to face, or just in a written format is different, right? So the rules, and over the phone is different, the rules for each of those are different. And if your only method or your primary method of communication is, like you said, texting, those behaviors that are being reinforced, or not behaviors that are being utilized and reinforced in those other types of communicative settings. And those need to be practiced and taught separately. Otherwise, you get what exactly what you’re saying, right? Yeah, I had a thought. When I text, I could just send it at any point in time, sometimes at two in the morning, and someone might get back to me, right?

Dana Jonson  27:34

So why can’t I do that? When I’m speaking, right? Or why can I call them if I can text them at two in the morning? Why can’t I pick up the phone and call them at three in the morning? And it’s like, well, first of all, why are you up at two in the morning? that’s usually where I start. But let’s back up a little bit. And there’s all usually some follow up questions too. But, you know, but yeah, it’s like this instant gratification that they’re so accustomed to. And in person, and this isn’t a generational thing. When they’re in person, it doesn’t work, you know, with each other. It doesn’t work. It’s not just like, Oh, you’re so old. You’re not understanding what I’m doing. Because you don’t get technologies. Like when you guys are in the room together. It’s not working. Can’t you see this isn’t working.

Meghan Cave, M.Ed. BCBA LBA (CT)  28:18

And that’s frustrating for kids. We have kids who who tell us that we have some of our teenagers who have the skills to be able to ask questions about this, right? And they recognize that it’s not working because they’re like, Listen, I tried to start a conversation with so and so. And literally, it didn’t work. And I think they think I did something weird. What did I do wrong? And it is so interesting, because they’re having the experience of here’s the skills I was taught, I applied them, it didn’t work. Right? And so giving them resources for what can you do we our favorite curriculum in this realm is called peers. You can buy it on Amazon, it’s written specifically for children on the autism spectrum, but the skills within it and the teaching strategies within it are relevant for literally all human beings everywhere. And it’s it’s really great because it literally outlines for you how to make a phone call, how to text how to I don’t even know what else is in there emailing right, just Dina and that conversation find common interests? Yeah, yeah. I have a question. So

Dana Jonson  29:25

you just said that it was it was designed for children with autism. But I have a question about that. Because a lot of the social skills things that I see are typically designed for children with autism, is that just because children with autism tend to often have social skills issues like there’s nothing special about having autism that makes these social skills programs work, right. Because Because I hear that a lot and I feel like it’s it’s a deterrent to parents sometimes because they’re like my kid is no doesn’t have autism, like they’re not that’s not the issue. But these programs can be really helpful because really what they are social skills programs.

Justyna Balzar, M.Ed. BCBA LBA (CT),  30:06

Yeah, yeah. So I think that is is part of the problem and perhaps apprehension that that people face when they’re presented or, or or recommended some of these tools is the primary characteristic of autism diagnostic criteria is social needs, right, and social barriers. So therefore, there are a lot of tools that are geared towards helping those individuals overcome those social barriers. What is not really thought of and talked about very often is that we are all social beings, right? And we all have some sort of social barrier, right? And it doesn’t matter whether or not you have a diagnosis, the social nuances change, depending on the type of environment you’re in, and the people that you’re with. So there’s cultural barriers, right? You could be very fluent in all the social nuances here in the States. But if you were to go to China, or Russia, or another country, they have different cultures, they have different body language and gestures that they use to communicate different things. And if you don’t understand those and are fluent in those, then you’re going to struggle socially, right? So social barriers are something that everybody encounters at some point in their life or throughout their life, that and we can all get better in those areas. And I think what needs to happen is more conversations around the idea. And this thought that social skills are relevant for everyone, right? And that these tools are relevant for everyone. And that it’s equally important, if not more important, than academics, because at the end of the day, you can be a brilliant reader, brilliant writer, fantastic at math, if you cannot relate to other people in a successful way, all of that knowledge is useless, right? It’s if you can’t share it with anyone, then who is it benefiting? Right? And how is it benefiting? You? Right, right. So I think a larger conversation and something that we have to advocate for, for sure fun,

Dana Jonson  32:28

if you think about how the biggest with the top three reasons adults with disabilities can’t be employed is over sexualization or behavior over sexualized behavior. But then hygiene and eating habits, right, that has nothing to do with my ability to be a lawyer my eating habits, right. But if I’m in a mediation with a set of parents, and I’m eating in a way that is not appealing to them, they’re not going to want to deal with me again. And it. It sounds so simple. But you think about like, why do we yell at our kids to have good manners? Because we want them to set a good impression? And so, because that matters, and people judge us on it? Whether that’s right or not, they do. And I, you know, I always find that for me, I want my kids to understand that concept. You know, it’s, it’s okay, if you don’t want to behave that way. But you need to understand how other people are interpreting it. Because if you don’t, then you won’t understand why you’re having difficulty. And if you’ve decided it’s worth it, that you want to behave that way, because that’s worth it to you, then that’s a different question.

Meghan Cave, M.Ed. BCBA LBA (CT)  33:33

Right. Right, you know, but I think a lot about when I think about these curriculum that are curricula that are they have taglines on them, right for students with autism are for individuals with autism, that we often hear that a lot about applied behavior analysis to and I think that’s, that’s an equally important point is our field and our science has been largely pigeon holed into the autism community, largely because it’s one of the most effective interventions and to support individuals with autism, right. But the part that often gets misinterpreted or lost in communication is that the science is just the science of learning and behavior. And it doesn’t matter if you’re an 85 year old adult with dementia. If you’re a 30 year old college student with no diagnosis, if you are a, you know, a an eight year old with autism, or if you’re a two year old, who might have a developmental delay, it literally doesn’t matter because the same principles of human behavior exist for all living beings, actually, not even just people. Really interesting as we often get questions from families about this idea of, well, you know, we’re going through the evaluation process and if my kid gets this label, and, you know, does that change what we’re doing and does that change what we’re doing Talking about and the reality of the situation is that the principles are effective no matter what your diagnosis is, or if you even have one. And that information is really great to have because it helps us better understand the profile and the things that we should be looking for. But the learning process is the learning process. So what’s great about these tools is that if you use them in accordance with the science of ABA, the learning principles are in the learning principles. And they’re helpful to all of us, not just individuals on the autism spectrum. So that’s another thing.

Dana Jonson  35:33

Yeah, it sounds like, for children with autism, it is much more difficult to teach them these skills. So what we’re saying is, these programs do work for them, that’s the piece. But that means that they also work for a broad variety of populations. It’s just that not every social skills program may work for a child with autism for a variety of reasons, right? But it’s not, there’s not something special about having autism that makes this program work for you. Like if you if you have ADHD, you can still do this program. Right. So I just I always feel like that’s important to say, so that parents don’t get confused by it, because social skills are impacted by so many different issues.

Meghan Cave, M.Ed. BCBA LBA (CT)  36:20

Yeah, my fiance will kill me for saying this on a podcast that I totally ABA and these curriculums on him all the time,

Dana Jonson  36:28

all the time, and he’s fully that’s gonna be my sound bite now, right?

Meghan Cave, M.Ed. BCBA LBA (CT)  36:33

Yep, very simple. Like, no picking your towel off off the floor after you use it, and making sure that you clear off the kitchen table, so someone else can use it. Right? And even bigger things like how you navigate disagreements, and how you communicate to other people that you appreciate them, right? Like, these are bigger concepts, but not for nothing, I think just you know, would agree with me, we, we both use these skills and these concepts, our families all the time. And, and on ourselves.

37:05

I got

37:06

ourselves Yeah,

Dana Jonson  37:07

exactly. Yeah, what my first teaching job was at a school that was all ABA. So that was my training. And in that regard, and I have to say it made it made me better prepared as a parent, I think I had, I felt like I had a little bit more control was almost like, you know, I got to read a little bit more of the directions and someone else. Yeah, that’s how it feels, it feels like you just have a little bit more information. So well, I am excited to have our kids get back to school, because I do think overall, this is going to be a good move for everybody. Do you guys have any last wrap up tips or thoughts for parents or what you’re working on right now? Or when they should start these ideas?

Justyna Balzar, M.Ed. BCBA LBA (CT),  37:53

Yeah, I think number one is start talking to your child about it, right? Because at the end of the day, the next four weeks are going to fly by or however many weeks whether your child starts September or August, so start to have those conversations so that you can better understand what if any apprehensions your child has, so you can start to work through those with them. And then discussing the similarities and differences and how there’s going to need to be a continued degree of flexibility, as children move into the school year, whether that’s, you know, going back to school, again, fully mass or whether, you know, come winter, perhaps there, there might be more changes or more restrictions in place, hopefully not. And hopefully we you know, we’re all moving in the right direction. having those conversations and preparing them for that is going to be the biggest difference and have the biggest impact in addition to all the regular things that families are already accustomed to doing and preparing for the new school year.

Meghan Cave, M.Ed. BCBA LBA (CT)  38:58

And do you have anything to add to that? I think the only other thing I would maybe recommend is to practice whatever you can practice, right. So if if you have a need, if your child is the child who hasn’t been around other people, if your child is the child who got their vaccine, and therefore hasn’t had to wear a mask in public for some time, I think that verbal review is so important to introducing the concepts and then the next step of it is to go out and practice it. And don’t practice it the day before school starts. Because if your child struggles with it, you don’t have continued opportunities to keep working on it. So now is the right time to begin to think about what are those transitions I need to make? And how can I fabricate real life opportunities for my child to practice it in a way that slowly and systematically moves towards what schools going to look like. So that would be my biggest my biggest tidbit for and I think that’s a great

Dana Jonson  39:56

idea because I know I’ve heard a lot over the past emic parents say, well, it never dawned on me, this would be a problem for my child, or it never dawned on me this was going to be a deficit. And I think it’s easy for us to assume that our child will be able to transition because maybe they’ve been transitioning fairly easily recently. And so, you know, don’t don’t wait and see, you know, if you practice now and they’ve got it, then great. But something could happen in the next four weeks. That freaks them out, too. So if they’ve got it, and they know it, maybe continuing that, to keep the squirrels would be great. So if someone’s listening, and they’re like, Oh, my God, I totally know what you’re talking about. And I absolutely have to talk to Justine or Megan, because the hangout spot ceiling place I need to contact, how would they do that? And all of this will be in our show notes, my show notes. And so you can go back to the podcast and find the show notes to get the information. But for those listening, Justine and Meghan, how do people find you?

Meghan Cave, M.Ed. BCBA LBA (CT)  41:00

Sure, so our website is www dot the hangout spot llc.com. And you can also reach out to us via email at Hello at the hangout spot. llc.com. Or you can give us a call at 203-529-1064. And we could talk about this stuff all day long. So feel free to reach out.

Dana Jonson  41:24

You guys will definitely be back because we have lots of things that we can always cover, which I love. Well, thank you, Justine, and Megan, I really appreciate your time and helping kids get ready to get back to school. So have a great school year. Thank you so much You do. Thank you so much for joining me today. Please don’t forget to follow this podcast. You don’t miss any new episodes and leave a review when you have a chance. If there’s anything you want to hear about or comment on, please go to my Facebook page special ed on special ed and find me there. I’ll see you next time here on special ed on special ed. Have a fabulous day. The views expressed in this episode are those of the speaker’s at the time of the recording and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any other agency organization, employer or company or even that individual today.