Dana Jonson [00:00:09]:
Hello and welcome back to Special Ed and Special Ed. Thank you for joining me. I’m excited about today’s guest. I have Andrea Pollack with us. Andrea’s journey is both inspiring and unique. After a successful 19 year career as a litigator, she shifted gears dramatically to focus on something deeply personal. So supporting parents of autistic children through the challenges of education and parenting. This shift was sparked by her own experiences homeschooling her autistic son when no suitable educational setting could be found, leading her to not only earn a master’s degree in education, but also to found autism Parent Solutions.

Dana Jonson [00:00:45]:
This is where she offers a lifeline to parents, empowering them with strategies and support to help their autistic children thrive. Additionally, as chairman of the board of the Cook School, an institute in New York City, she continues to impact special education significantly. Today, Andrea is here to share her invaluable sites into specialized education, the transformative power of mindset shifts for parents, and navigating the complexities of raising a child on the autism spectrum. So thank you, Andrea, for joining me. I really appreciate it.

Andrea Pollack [00:01:16]:
Thank you. I’m excited to be here.

Dana Jonson [00:01:17]:
Good. So before we get into it, I’m going to play my disclaimer as I always do, so let’s get that out of the way. The information in this podcast is provided for general informational and entertainment purposes only and may not reflect the current law in your jurisdiction at the time you’re listening. Nothing in this episode creates an attorney client relationship, nor is it legal advice. Do not act or refrain from acting on the basis of any information included in or accessible through this episode without seeking appropriate legal or other professional advice on the particular facts and circumstances at issue from a lawyer or service provider license in your state, country, or other appropriate licensing jurisdiction. Andrea, I’m so glad you’re here and I would love to start off by understanding your journey. What brought you here? Talk a little bit about raising your son and some of the challenges you experienced and why you’re the person I am talking to about parenting autistic children.

Andrea Pollack [00:02:01]:
Sure. Initially, after his diagnosis, we helped to create a school with other parents in New York City. And he’s now 25, so that was 22 years ago.

Dana Jonson [00:02:12]:
Wow.

Andrea Pollack [00:02:13]:
And the school experience just wasn’t working well for him. It just. The model didn’t work for him. It was a great school and worked for other children. It wasn’t good for him. So I decided to leave my career, as you mentioned, and homeschool him. I had no idea what I was doing I also didn’t know when I started that I was going to be doing that for eight years.

Dana Jonson [00:02:33]:
Oh, wow, that’s a. That’s.

Andrea Pollack [00:02:35]:
Had I known that, I don’t know, I might have been too intimidated. So. Yeah, so we started to homeschool him. And I, you know, I tried to learn everything I could, everything that was available. I read all the books and I did the Google searches. Although, you know, 22 years ago, there was a lot less available than there is today. Yes, yes. Which is, you know, it’s better that there’s more in some ways.

Andrea Pollack [00:02:59]:
But I know that that’s also overwhelming.

Dana Jonson [00:03:01]:
Right. Because I always tell parents, take everything with a grain of salt and do your research. Make sure, you know, just because that happened for one parent doesn’t mean it’s happening for you. So, you know.

Andrea Pollack [00:03:11]:
Exactly. So after eight years, he was ready to return to a school setting. And I decided that it really would be wrong for me to go back to law, that it would be criminal for me to not take what I had learned and share it with other parents. So I, at that point, went back to school and got my master’s in education to become the most effective teacher and coach that I could be. And I started Autism Parent Solutions so that I could help other parents. Because what I knew after all of those years was that I had learned so much through trial and error and that I could spare parents a lot of trial and error. I could help them get to a place of parenting confidence so much sooner, and I could help them sort through the overwhelm to achieve that confidence sooner. That’s wonderful.

Dana Jonson [00:03:57]:
And you’re right. I think there is a lot of trial and error. And, you know, 22 years ago, I had a friend who was in the same situation. Exactly. And did what? Basically, you know, created a new school here in Connecticut just so that her child could be properly serviced, because it just didn’t exist back then. And 22 years ago, we as attorneys were still arguing ABA. As you know, we’re still getting the methodology argument. Right.

Dana Jonson [00:04:23]:
ABA is a method, not that we don’t have to follow. We were not in a place where it was well known and agreed to. So it was very challenging back then for a lot of reasons. So I want to talk a little bit about. I know you’ve had your child both homeschooled, but the homeschooling, it wasn’t like you at your kitchen table. Right. He was engaging in a program that was created specifically for his needs. And then in the public school, students have IEPs and the individual education plans.

Dana Jonson [00:04:51]:
And I’d like for you to talk to us a little bit about what those are. They’re individualized for the student. But how, when you’re coaching parents, and I know you don’t do a lot on the, on the component of the legal aspect because that’s not the area that you’re focusing on. But with IEPs, how do you coach your parents?

Andrea Pollack [00:05:09]:
Well, the advice I give on that. So the IEPs, of course, set out the annual goals for the child. And schools are a place where a lot of the goals are academic, as they should be. That’s a really interesting and important thing. But so much of what our children need help with is on the behavioral side. And by behavioral, I don’t mean like challenging behavior. I mean they need help with impulse control and they need help with frustration tolerance and help with flexibility. So those underlying skills are so important to enabling the academic success, be more effective.

Andrea Pollack [00:05:45]:
So I do encourage parents to ensure that on the iep, we’re not just talking about how many words they’re going to read or what school level or how much math, that we’re also addressing those foundational skills.

Dana Jonson [00:05:56]:
I’m so glad you said that, because that is exactly what the IEP is meant to address. And that’s why the idea is there. The Individuals with Disabilities Education act, which is special ed, that’s what governs special ed schools, not just academics. Education is not just academics. We include behavioral, emotional, and foundational skills. So if there’s a child who’s struggling in any of those areas, they should absolutely 100% have an IEP with those goals and objectives on them. And I know that for at least in Connecticut, It’s, I think, 14 that we start talking about transition goals. And you can start those so much earlier.

Dana Jonson [00:06:35]:
Right. Because, you know, if you wait till a child’s 16, say, to start working on something that is ultimately like a communication skills that are ultimately going to be needed for post high school life, you’re waiting too long. So, and I think, you know, we refer to those as the foundational skills, I think, initially rather than the transitional skills. But to think about, for parents to think about, what are the skills that this child or that your child is going to need post high school, whether that’s post 12th grade or post 22, you know, what the age of 22, to understand what are those skills they’re going to need and how can we start building them from the beginning.

Andrea Pollack [00:07:16]:
Yes. The other thing I will say on the IEP front And I’m sure we’ll get into this a lot more because it’s a lot of what I do in the coaching is to make sure that in addition to making sure that the building of those skills is on the iep, to also make sure that it’s not done in a disciplinary punishment type way. Because this is the development of social emotional skills. It needs to be done in a way that’s compatible with building self esteem. Right. The child’s always been criticized because they can’t control their impulses and all those things. These are skills that they need to learn and they need to be learned in a positive environment for them. So that’s another thing that is important to me for parents to know, to advocate for IEPs.

Dana Jonson [00:07:57]:
I completely agree. And I think when we’re talking about programs for autistic children and we’re talking about behavioral issues, it’s about not reacting to the behavior, but rather finding out what the core issue is of the behavior and then building skills from there. So as you said, if a child is having meltdowns, that’s a way they are communicating to you. They’re communicating something. What is it? Is it I can’t control myself, I don’t have any self restraint, self control, or is it I’m upset or uncomfortable or whatever it is. And even for verbal children, I’m not just talking about nonverbal children and candidly, typically developing children too. You know, the things we think of as behaviors are an inability to communicate something to us and we need to find out what that is.

Andrea Pollack [00:08:44]:
Right. And sometimes the problem is that the expectation is too high for that child. So sometimes it’s not. Even the core problem isn’t at the child level, it’s at the expectation level. So we need to meet them where they are so that they can be successful and help them build from there in small increments.

Dana Jonson [00:09:01]:
That’s a great point. And from the legal perspective for me, when I get to, Sometimes I see IEPs that are just dumbed down and it’s not mindfully done. The way you’re talking about, like if this, if it’s too much, this is not what this child can accomplish in one year. And we’re starting way ahead of where they are. You do need to meet them where they are, but parents need to be wary as well of sometimes school districts, if they don’t, if they don’t, aren’t meeting the goals and objectives because of other reasons they may what I call dumb them down. So you have to make sure that we’re not dumbing it down, we’re just meeting the child where they are. And that always starts with evaluations. Everything we do in the IEP starts with an evaluation.

Andrea Pollack [00:09:41]:
What I always say to parents about that is that that high level of expectation, your child can get there, but they can’t get there through shame and punishment. They need to be met where they are and then built up to that. But there’s no reason why they can’t build it. It just needs to start in the right place.

Dana Jonson [00:09:57]:
Exactly. And high expectations are good. I want parents to have high expectations and hold their school district to a high level. So that’s absolutely right. But as you said, it might take time. You might have to start where they are, not where you would like them to be. And it might not happen in one year.

Andrea Pollack [00:10:14]:
Some students need.

Dana Jonson [00:10:15]:
And that’s why I’m saying, you know, when we talk about transition services, which we’re really not talking about today, but they kind of play in to those foundational pieces that you can start on some of those things earlier. I like the example of for a child to be independent on their own later in life, they pretty much need to be toilet trained. We don’t wait till they’re 14 or 15 or 16 to start toilet training them. That’s not how that works. So you know, there are some skills we can address much earlier on, which I think is great. And thinking of the IEPs, do you coach your parents in advocating in the school? I mean as an advocate, as a non attorney advocate, because I know that you’re not practicing in this area of the law. So as a non attorney advocate, how do you coach your parents on how to understand students rights and how to advocate for their child?

Andrea Pollack [00:11:05]:
Well, what I, what we focus on is really being an equal partner with the school, which is what they’re entitled to be under the idea. Right.

Dana Jonson [00:11:15]:
Despite the fact that there are 20 other people at the table with you, you are equal partners.

Andrea Pollack [00:11:20]:
Right. But you know, and we talk about what that means and how to advocate and you know, we talk about the importance of being an informed, active participant, but also, you know, being kind and open minded.

Dana Jonson [00:11:33]:
Right.

Andrea Pollack [00:11:34]:
Because sometimes parents are inclined to go in there with all their, you know, fists up and ready and that’s not the most helpful way to be an equal partner. But also it’s really important to be persistent if you’re not, if your child’s not getting what they need. And that’s why the whole program is really geared toward confident parenting. And that’s an element of it, to be able to have that confidence to go in and be an equal partner with the school.

Dana Jonson [00:11:54]:
That’s a great point. I always encourage parents to learn as much as they can, but you can’t learn everything by just reading the law. You know that it’s, it’s much more nuanced behind the scenes. But you do have to have a basic understanding of your rights and you have to as, as you said, going in with guns blazing is rarely productive. I mean, no matter how upset you are, it’s rarely productive. And I find that most of the time it’s not the actual people working with the child that are restricting what they’re able to do. You know, they, they have orders from up above saying either do this, don’t do that, don’t recommend this. I know I have clients all the time, say the teacher came to me and said, they’re not going to say this in the iep, but I should ask for blank.

Dana Jonson [00:12:36]:
And a lot of times that’s good. If you have a good relationship with the staff working with your child, they are going to give you information that they may not feel they are able to, even though they’re supposed to throwing that out there, but that sometimes they feel they’re not able to do formally. So I always think that that’s really important. I also like to point out that yelling at the school district when you disagree, again, rarely productive. But there are methods to resolve issues and there is mediation if you disagree with something that they’re asking for their resolution sessions, a lot of schools will do that, what they call voluntary resolution sessions and meaning that you’re not filing for due process or anything, but you’re agreeing to have a separate meeting to discuss, you know, what the issues are. And there’s always that right for individual educational evaluations. So IEE’s, you know, if you don’t agree with the evaluation, ask for an IEE and get another one and do that. I mean, always you can also consult with people, but I like to throw that in there, that there are other methods than trying to convince the staff in an IEP meeting what to do and what to provide.

Dana Jonson [00:13:46]:
There are other methods that they have.

Andrea Pollack [00:13:49]:
One thing I’ll add on the IEP front that I help parents embrace, sometimes they don’t want to hear some of the challenges their child is having. So they are actually against the support that the child needs. And I help them understand that this isn’t, you know, any kind of long term projection. This is just what your child needs right now. So don’t resist it. Right. So sometimes we’re talking about parents advocating for more help if their child isn’t getting it. But I also want to make sure parents know to not advocate for less help because they don’t want to face the fact that their child has those needs.

Dana Jonson [00:14:25]:
And I do run into that a lot as well in those situations. I often recommend getting an IEE because I feel like when you get somebody from the outside who probably has more experience and credentials than your. The evaluator in your school, and they provide and say, this is what this child needs and this is what it will look like and this is where they can get to. I feel like breaking it down into those smaller pieces sometimes helps parents understand because you don’t get that kind of breakdown, usually in a school evaluation. And I find that outside evaluators are better at breaking it down. This is what it looks like now. This is where they can go. And this is about what it’s going to take to get there.

Dana Jonson [00:15:05]:
So I think that’s really helpful. I hear a lot too, like, I don’t want my child labeled. Do you. Do you get that?

Andrea Pollack [00:15:12]:
Yes. You know, interestingly, you know, there’s a lot of compelling research that shows that a lot of times, and this goes to whether or not you tell that your child what their diagnosis is. And parents don’t want the child to know because they don’t want them to feel othered. And I understand that completely. But the research does show that individuals who, you know, are able to then understand what’s going on are relieved by it. They’re like, oh, that makes so much sense now. My whole life makes sen sense.

Dana Jonson [00:15:36]:
Right.

Andrea Pollack [00:15:37]:
I guess the idea is if, if the label doesn’t mean anything negative, it doesn’t have to. Right?

Dana Jonson [00:15:43]:
No.

Andrea Pollack [00:15:43]:
And so if don’t. Don’t allow that label to mean that negative thing, if it doesn’t mean the negative thing, then there’s no harm in labeling the child.

Dana Jonson [00:15:50]:
Right. And I think that from my perspective, if, if you’re looking for services for a child who’s autistic, you need to be identifying them as autistic. You. You’re not going to get those services that you require under, you know, adhd. Right. So you’re not going to. It’s going to just have a different focus. Obviously, all IEPs are supposed to be tailored to the child, but you might have a different focus in that situation, which you might not want to dive into.

Dana Jonson [00:16:15]:
Oh, and that’s the other thing I have. Will this follow them for the rest of their life. Is that document in their educational record? Sure. Is every future teacher going to read it? Probably not. I don’t know of many teachers who read beyond what they need to know that year. Occasionally they might read the previous evaluation, but really they’re focused on what they have to do that year. So I tell parents not to get so caught up with that. Cause it’s not like it’s following them.

Dana Jonson [00:16:41]:
And again, as you said, it’s not negative.

Andrea Pollack [00:16:43]:
Right. There are plenty of very, very successful people. Yeah. Very successful people who are autistic. So it’s not a long term, you know, problem. It’s, let’s focus on now. That’s a big part of what I help parents with also because they, they. I understand it.

Andrea Pollack [00:16:58]:
Look, I was the same. I was worried about what the future would look like. But if we can stay as focused as possible on the now and get the help your child needs now, it increases the odds of this, of a successful future.

Dana Jonson [00:17:11]:
Absolutely. Absolutely. So to that, and when you, you are, your primary, you’re a parenting coach. Right. So you’re helping parents learn how to parent their autistic child. So I want to talk a little bit about why conventional parenting isn’t. And I say that as if we all parent the same way, which we don’t. We know it, but there is, there are some common themes in traditional parenting that are counterintuitive for a child with autism.

Dana Jonson [00:17:40]:
So can you talk a little bit to that?

Andrea Pollack [00:17:42]:
Sure. You know, so many of us are programmed by our culture, our background, our upbringing to shape behavior through discipline techniques. It’s the way we were brought up. It’s the way teachers behaved in our schools. And we’re not even aware of it. It’s a programming that’s in there that we’re not aware that we’re repeating. So we use things like threats and punishments and even rewards, which can be really tricky because if the boundary is not in the right place, incentivizing a child with a reward is never going to enable them to meet it. It stresses them out because they know they can’t meet it because they don’t have the skill.

Dana Jonson [00:18:17]:
Right.

Andrea Pollack [00:18:17]:
Right. So using those kinds of techniques, in my opinion, target the wrong problem.

Dana Jonson [00:18:24]:
And children can be inconsistent.

Andrea Pollack [00:18:26]:
So that’s true too.

Dana Jonson [00:18:27]:
If they get that reward once, doesn’t mean they’ll get it again. And you know, I think that we are programmed to say, oh, well, look, they did it once, so they can do it. Right. So they can do it based on this strategy. Because they did it once. That’s not really how it works.

Andrea Pollack [00:18:44]:
It’s not true for any of us. As I say to the parents, right. I work with, I say, they ever come home from work and been like, I just, I just can’t cook. I just can’t make dinner. I just either were eating pizza or eating Cheerios. Right. I’m. I’m spent.

Andrea Pollack [00:18:57]:
Okay, but you could make dinner yesterday. Right, right.

Dana Jonson [00:19:00]:
Exactly. So fair. So fair. Yeah, that’s a good point. And I think, especially when children have boundaries to their ability to perform, that it makes it a million times different. And I think, I love that you focus on the positive component. And as we’ve already said, you know, I always look at it as the child is communicating something to you. Right.

Dana Jonson [00:19:25]:
If they are having a negative, what we would call behavior, and I’m using my air quotes that no one can see, you know, that. That they’re communicating some. And that’s for typically developing children too, I find. You know, they are communicating something to you. And as the parent, it is your job to figure out what they are communicating to you.

Andrea Pollack [00:19:45]:
Exactly. They’re communicating, in my opinion, an undeveloped skill or an unmet need. Right. And that’s why these techniques, like punishments and threats and rewards, they target the wrong problem because they’re targeting the child’s desire to behave. Like, if you behave well, you get this thing.

Dana Jonson [00:20:04]:
Right.

Andrea Pollack [00:20:04]:
But if it’s a skill deficit, it’s targeting the wrong problem. So what I. The perspective I first share to try to help parents embrace this is that your child is not choosing that behavior in the moment.

Dana Jonson [00:20:16]:
Right.

Andrea Pollack [00:20:16]:
If they could do better in the moment, they would. Okay.

Dana Jonson [00:20:19]:
And I think that’s just a natural thing with children. They want to please. As a rule, children want to please and they want to do well. And if they’re not that, it’s not because they’ve decided, I’m going to give you a bad day, you know, does.

Andrea Pollack [00:20:32]:
It mean that they never choose bad behavior? Of course not. Right. Sometimes they’re behaviors that they’re infuriating. They need to be addressed. But we can do so in a different way by helping them build the skills that are leading to that. That kind of behavior.

Dana Jonson [00:20:47]:
Exactly. It’s not just that the behaviors aren’t just coming from something. Sometimes the behaviors give them something they want. You know, maybe if they know that they’ll be removed from something, then that behavior is going to occur, not because something happened before the behavior, but because they know they’ll be removed from the environment and they don’t want to be there. So I think it goes both ways. It’s not just that there’s a, there is a root cause to that behavior. It could be something that happened before the behavior, it could be something that happened after the behavior. So you have to look at both.

Andrea Pollack [00:21:16]:
Well, even on that issue of escape. Right. As a reason, I don’t think that those children are calculating that.

Dana Jonson [00:21:22]:
Oh, no, no, no.

Andrea Pollack [00:21:23]:
Not right. But. Well, what, you know, we have to be careful because it makes it sound like they’re choosing this behavior in order to achieve escape. And I think they’re actually, they’re not choosing it at all. They’re showing us that they’ve, you know, they run out of the limit of their tolerance for whatever’s happening. So they behave that way and they, and there’s no downside for them because they get.

Dana Jonson [00:21:42]:
Right. Exactly.

Andrea Pollack [00:21:43]:
But they’re still not choosing it, in my opinion.

Dana Jonson [00:21:46]:
Okay, interesting. No, I, I, I think that’s fair. And I think, I think you’re right, because if they don’t want to be there, I’m just processing this in my head. If they don’t want to be there or it’s an uncomfortable environment for them, they’re communicating to you that they don’t want to be there. And, you know, if you’re trying to force them to sit still and be happy, that’s not training them to get rid of the behavior, because the behavior is actually getting them out of it. So, again, they’re not choosing that behavior, but they’re not motivated for your star or your sticker.

Andrea Pollack [00:22:15]:
Right. And what I would say is it’s not that they don’t want to be there, but it’s something about it is very, very hard for them. And that’s the thing we need figure out what, what is so hard so that we can make it easier to enable them to be successful in being there. Yes.

Dana Jonson [00:22:28]:
And then that raises the question, is that something they need to learn? Is that an environment they’re going to have to encounter on a regular basis? Or is it something we’ve construed that they, you know, they can choose not to be there? You know, I know I have people I don’t want to be around. Yeah. So sometimes I have to be, and I have to build my tolerance for that. But I think it’s also, you know, when there are behavior, not behavior. I’m sorry, when there are personality issues and there can be for an autistic child, that it’s fair to say they may not always want to go to this class or see that teacher. And yes, they have to build a tolerance and learn, as you said, to make it easier. But I think we also really need to look at how are we. How are we delivering this instruction as well? Maybe what we’re doing isn’t meeting the need.

Andrea Pollack [00:23:16]:
Well, right, Exactly. And when I’m, you know, if a child really doesn’t like to go to a particular class and be with a particular teacher, we have to look at, you know, is the subject matter too far above what they can do to be successful? Because you don’t want to go in every day and feel unsuccessful? That’s not fair. Or is the teacher subtly communicating disapproval every day? And that’s why. So we have to figure out what is the cause of that, because if it can be remedied, we can help the teacher use more positive, more positive approach toward the student. If the subject matter’s too hard, then absolutely why should they be in a class that they can’t succeed in?

Dana Jonson [00:23:49]:
Right. No, that makes. That makes perfect sense. And that goes back to what you said. Starting where the child is. That’s where we always, you know, that’s where the evaluations come in. You get the evaluation so that you know exactly where your child is and you work from there. It drives me crazy when, you know, in the middle, maybe it’s not their annual or triannual evaluation, but something has shifted with the child.

Dana Jonson [00:24:12]:
So the IEP shifts and there’s no evaluation because something has shifted and we don’t know what it is. We need to evaluate in some way, shape, or form to identify why that suddenly popped up and why it suddenly happened. And for parents, you are entitled to ask for an evaluation at any point if it’s needed and warranted. So just a little tip there. I want to talk about mindset shifts. Parents, I know that that is a key component. So can you talk a little bit about the importance of the mindset shifts?

Andrea Pollack [00:24:45]:
Absolutely. I mean, it does start with the idea that the child’s not choosing the behavior. And the reason that’s so important is not only because it then helps us figure out what skills are missing and how to build them, but it helps to keep the parent regulated, which is so important, because if you think your child is doing that on purpose, whatever that is, it’s hard not to get upset, angry, scared, all of those things. Whereas if we just look at it objectively as, okay, the child’s not choosing it, what skill is missing here or what support do they need that’s not in place it’s easier to stay regulated. And that’s so important because one dysregulated person, meaning the parent, can’t help regulate a child.

Dana Jonson [00:25:25]:
Right.

Andrea Pollack [00:25:25]:
So we’re adding fuel to the fire in that case. Another that I did already mention as well is the idea of staying present. Right. If we stay present and focus on the current needs, it doesn’t mean we’re never going to think of the future. But we can’t let you know some undetermined future dictate what you do now. Your best odds of success in the future are helping the child with exactly what they need right now.

Dana Jonson [00:25:49]:
And I always say having an end goal like that, unknown future, undetermined future, is great because if you have a path, you can deviate from the path. You can make changes if you don’t have that path and you don’t know where you’re going. But as you said, that doesn’t mean we’re addressing those higher level pieces today. Today we’re addressing what does this child need to function with me in the grocery store or be able to transition from school to home or whatever those pieces are. That’s what the child really requires. And I think that’s one of the reasons it’s so important for parents to really understand their rights with a school district. Because I hear a lot. Well, they told us that was a home issue.

Dana Jonson [00:26:31]:
They told us that was our problem. Or sometimes evaluations will actually say school, home, other, you know, and it’s like they’re, they’re designating where things should go when the reality is a lot of that can and should be addressed in school.

Andrea Pollack [00:26:46]:
Right. It’s all integrated. Yeah. So an example, a school example of this would be, you know, example that I helped a family with. The child had difficulty attending school and it got so bad that basically he was threatening to throw himself out of a moving car on the way to school. Like it was just so bad. Right. And then it was treated with discipline.

Andrea Pollack [00:27:07]:
Now you have to go to school.

Dana Jonson [00:27:09]:
Right.

Andrea Pollack [00:27:09]:
And it was never going to support him in the way he needed.

Dana Jonson [00:27:13]:
Right.

Andrea Pollack [00:27:14]:
So it became like this negative spiral. So instead what we did was we looked for what was the source of the problem, why was it so hard for him to go to school. And there were a number of different elements. He worried about what his teachers thought in certain instances. He didn’t find a friend group so easily. There’s a lot of issues. And we worked with the school to address issue by issue to try to help him and then allowed him to go to school. For a shortened period, you know, and some days he couldn’t go in the beginning, but the idea was we were building up, and now he fully attends school, he’s fully happy, He’s.

Andrea Pollack [00:27:49]:
He’s doing great.

Dana Jonson [00:27:50]:
And that goes back to what you said before, which is finding the root cause. Why is it difficult? Because something’s going on. There’s a barrier there.

Andrea Pollack [00:27:58]:
Right. And it’s not just that he didn’t want to go to school. That’s what I mean. Like, perspective shift is he’s not choosing this. There’s a. There’s a real reason here why this is hard. Let’s find out what it is and help fix it. That’s our only chance of success here.

Andrea Pollack [00:28:12]:
Right. It’s either beat him into it. Like, how’s that going to work?

Dana Jonson [00:28:16]:
Exactly. So we’re talking about, like, a skill deficit or an unmet need. Right. If you can ask yourself what is. What is a skill that doesn’t exist or the unmet need. And for some students, that’s harder to identify than others. And sometimes you do need. Well, the other pieces that I think is really important for parents to understand is that if the school is doing something that is successful and they’re saying, well, you know, home is different, parents can request parent training.

Dana Jonson [00:28:45]:
That’s absolutely a related service. So if your child is only melting down at home and not at school, you can absolutely ask for that in the iep. And I’m sure that’s something that you help address as well. But I think parents feel like, oh, it’s home.

Andrea Pollack [00:28:59]:
So it’s just.

Dana Jonson [00:28:59]:
It’s like an island and it really shouldn’t be.

Andrea Pollack [00:29:02]:
Yes. Although one of the things I will say that parents need to be careful about with that kind of parent training is that it has to be targeted to parenting. Right. It’s not an extension of the school or the teacher’s agenda. Children do behave differently in school than they do at home. And sometimes children use up all their patients at school, so they come home and they melt down. There are a lot of differences between the environment, the function of school versus the function of home.

Dana Jonson [00:29:32]:
Right.

Andrea Pollack [00:29:33]:
In school, they are working on, you know, largely on building academic skill for the future. At home, they’re working on, you know, the whole child. Right. The wellbeing of the whole child. So I just think parents need to be aware of that, because sometimes I find that parent training is not designed to really support parenting.

Dana Jonson [00:29:52]:
Yes, I think you’re absolutely right. And that’s why they can come to the home. I mean, I think, I think for that person to have the parents come into the school to understand the behavior plan or whatever it is, that’s not realistic, as you said. I think it’s important for the BCBA or which is a board certified behavior analyst who usually, which typically gets involved in their behaviors that we have with students or the school psychologist or whoever is implementing, or the special education teacher, whoever is appropriate to go home and look at that environment and say, okay, this is how it’s different. You know, these are the pieces that are important in this environment versus our environment. And yes, it’s all in an effort for the child to achieve their IEP goals and objectives. That doesn’t mean the parent is teaching the IEP goals and objectives. That means that the parent is integrating the responses the school has into their parenting so that it’s consistent, not that they’re running a program, you know, so them teaching you how to get your child to sit at the dinner table might be what they need as consistency for implementing their program during the school day.

Dana Jonson [00:30:58]:
So as you said, it really has to be an integrated, it has to be integrated into their parenting philosophy.

Andrea Pollack [00:31:05]:
Right? Yeah. I just want to add one quick mindset shift that I hadn’t mentioned yet that I think is so important and that is it’s really important to celebrate wins, even the smallest wins.

Dana Jonson [00:31:16]:
Yeah.

Andrea Pollack [00:31:17]:
Because we are so focused on our children’s needs and our children’s challenges and all of those things. And that’s great because that helps us problem solve and get their needs met. But there are, there are wins that happen every day if you look for them. And it’s really important to celebrate them both for yourself and for the child. It relates to the child’s development of self esteem and it relates to the parents building of confidence and hope. So it’s really important, 100%.

Dana Jonson [00:31:43]:
I had a child who was engaging in not so safe online behavior and the parent came to us with the sheets and I said, well, you know, yes, this is dangerous. But on another note, the writing has really improved because it was sort of like fan fiction kind of thing. And I was like, you know, so let’s focus. There’s one thing that we learned out of it that was good. It was sort of a weird way to get there. But I’m like, their writing’s improved greatly. So for parents who struggle with getting to that shift, because I do think sometimes parents take it personally, sometimes they, you know, the child is mean to them and they either they don’t really take it at. I shouldn’t say mean to them again.

Dana Jonson [00:32:22]:
It’s not willful. But something happens and they interpret it as the child is being mean to me or I can’t parent this child. And that I think often comes, that’s probably more prevalent. But it’s that attitude that children should behave because you told them to. And it’s hard to shift out of that and turn to, it’s not me being a bad parent, it’s the student having a need or the child, I’m sorry, the child having a need that maybe your other children didn’t have, you know. So how do you help parents make that shift? Because that’s a hard shift.

Andrea Pollack [00:32:55]:
Right. Well, if you go back to they’re not choosing the behavior, that there’s a skill deficit or an unmet need. And really, I mean, that’s an easy shift to understand on its face, but to maintain can be a little bit more challenging. Yeah. What I try to help parents do is I want them to experience all their feelings. I want them to process all their feelings. I don’t want them to stuff their feelings down. But they can understand that in the moment.

Andrea Pollack [00:33:20]:
They can set their feelings aside, do the best they can to help their child in the moment because their child is showing they’re in distress.

Dana Jonson [00:33:27]:
Right.

Andrea Pollack [00:33:28]:
So you going into distress doesn’t help. So by focusing on, they’re not choosing the behavior. Let me address the situation here and then I can go cry in my bedroom later, right?

Dana Jonson [00:33:39]:
Yeah, no, I totally get it. That’s why I’m laughing at. Yep, cry in your bedroom later. Go sit in the closet by yourself.

Andrea Pollack [00:33:45]:
Right. Call a friend, whatever, you know, go on. Whatever it is, however it is that you help yourself through it. Once you see enough times that the child isn’t choosing the behavior and really believe it, you can see that as, okay, we have some work to do here. And also the parent is developing a closer bond all the time in that, in that way with the child so that they can say later, you know, I want to talk about my feelings. Not in the moment though. The child doesn’t have access, I always say they don’t have access to the smart part of their brain. So we can’t reason with them.

Dana Jonson [00:34:18]:
Right.

Andrea Pollack [00:34:18]:
In that, you know, highly charged moment.

Dana Jonson [00:34:20]:
Well, and they’re going to mirror the parents behavior. Parents say, well, it escalated nine times out of 10. That’s because the parent was escalating too. And we don’t always see our own behaviors and emotions the way that other people see them. So if you’re escalating becoming more frustrated. The child’s going to mimic that and come up here and everybody is losing access to the smart part of their brain.

Andrea Pollack [00:34:42]:
Right. And you know, sometimes parents say, well, you know, I’m entitled to feel that way. Absolutely, 100% entitled to. It’s, it makes perfect sense. Most people in your shoes would. But in the moment, what’s the most effective thing I can do? I try to try as hard as I can and it’s not that easy. I’m not, I’m not oversimplifying this, but to put my feelings about this to the side, to recognize that I need to self regulate first and then I’ll deal with my feelings thereafter. Because in the moment it’s just not helpful.

Dana Jonson [00:35:14]:
Exactly. And that, and it’s not easy, like just to be fair, it’s really not easy to be able to stay calm sometimes.

Andrea Pollack [00:35:20]:
You know what else? Here’s another thing I tell parents all the time that I think is so important. Confident parenting, great parenting isn’t perfect parenting. It’s okay, we’re not going to break them. If we have a moment where we lose control of our self regulation and we cause the escalation, okay, get up, dust yourself off, let’s go into tomorrow. Right. It’s going to happen and that’s okay. Our children will see us as people. They know we have feelings.

Andrea Pollack [00:35:44]:
So this is not about being perfect.

Dana Jonson [00:35:47]:
And I think also it opens that opportunity for you to talk to your child about I, I made a mistake or my reaction was disproportionate to the situation. And I acknowledge that. And it, you know, it’s difficult for me in that situation to maintain myself. So, you know, I’m going to try and do better next time. And that really, I think can also help children understand that it’s okay to not do it perfectly all the time.

Andrea Pollack [00:36:13]:
Yes. I mean, so you’re modeling what that looks like, right? We’re always modeling for our children. So you’re humanizing yourself and you’re modeling what, you know, self reflection looks like. You’re modeling what an apology looks like is brilliant. And kids love it when parents apologize to them.

Dana Jonson [00:36:29]:
Oh yeah, a little too much. So to that point, difficulty. It is difficult. Parenting is hard, period. Doesn’t matter what kids you have, parenting is hard. Now you have a child who requires completely different parenting than what you are used to and it may or may not be successful. And you’re engaging these challenges often with your school district. Because even I always say, even if every school district did what they were supposed to.

Dana Jonson [00:36:58]:
And every parent did what they were supposed to, I’d still have a job. Because they’re just disagreements sometimes, you know, sometimes they’re just disagreements and you know, there’s, there’s more than one way to skin a cat. That’s a weird saying now that I said that. But I don’t know why we’d be doing that in the first place. But anyway, I digress. So for parents, how did they build that network? I was, I was at a conference early in my legal career that a woman, a mother said something that was really stuck with me and that was I couldn’t hang out with my friends who were super worried about their child not doing well in calculus because we were still potty training. And you know, and when we had these small wins like woohoo. They didn’t eat the coaster on the table.

Dana Jonson [00:37:44]:
The other parents couldn’t be supportive. They were sad. You know. And so there is sometimes. And that doesn’t mean all parents of typical children are like that. Some totally get it and they can jump on board and they know when not to be a lunatic in front of you.

Andrea Pollack [00:37:59]:
Well, actually one of the things I found is so interesting is that it’s impossible to know the right thing to say to each person because sometimes somebody says to you like, well, everybody has issues. You think like you’re being dismissed, like it’s very dismissive and you feel insulted. Like, you know, whether you can hang mail is not the same as whether my child’s still being potty trained at six. There’s that. But on the flip side, if someone says, oh poor you, oh, you’re doing such a good job. I could never do. Some people feel like, don’t pity me. I don’t mean to be kidding.

Andrea Pollack [00:38:29]:
Right. So in a weird way we’re setting other people up though to really have nothing right to say is very, very difficult.

Dana Jonson [00:38:36]:
Yes. And that, that is. I totally hear what you’re saying because I, that drives me crazy when and I know it’s well intentioned the ou. You know, you, you’re a special person to be able to do this. Or the one I really hate is God only gives us what we can handle. And I’m like, I cannot take that one. Like really? He’s got a great sense of humor. Thank you.

Dana Jonson [00:38:58]:
So anyway, I think you’re right. And so how do parents build those networks and support systems? And again, that doesn’t mean you’re losing all your friends that you had before. I don’t mean it that way. But you do have to build a support system that understands you where you are. So it’s not just about meeting the child where they are, but the parent needs to be met where they are as well. So how do you go about doing that?

Andrea Pollack [00:39:22]:
That’s a great question. I’m not sure I have an answer for you other than. I mean, that’s why I have. My program has a group component to it and parents love that. Right. They love. We get together twice per week and we.

Dana Jonson [00:39:37]:
Wow.

Andrea Pollack [00:39:37]:
We celebrate wins first because it is so important. Right. The happiness research shows that the amount of time you spend focused on positive things versus negative things really makes a difference. And then we dig into all of the. What’s going on and. And people can see, oh, the themes are the same. We’re having the same kinds of issues. Sometimes a parent will recommend something to another parent, and that’s always lovely.

Andrea Pollack [00:40:02]:
So, you know, I think you have to just find your tribe. And it’s hard to say because there are online groups and some of them are so toxic that that. That’s not a place either. So, you know, in my experience, you know, I found like two friends when I was raising my son who we could really talk about this stuff. And that’s what I guess I would say in part, keep your friends and go to book clubs. Do whatever you can do if you can. I mean, that’s. It’s hard.

Andrea Pollack [00:40:32]:
I’m not going to sugarcoat it. Right, Right. But you don’t have to talk about these issues there. Right. Separate and save these issues for certain people who are the ones who are privileged to be in conversation with you about that.

Dana Jonson [00:40:43]:
Yes. That’s a great. That’s great advice. And I do think the online piece is a blessing and a curse at the same time. And I always tell parents are two things to keep in mind. If you’ve got some Facebook group of parents with exactly the same child and you don’t feel good when you get off of it, leave it.

Andrea Pollack [00:41:00]:
Yes.

Dana Jonson [00:41:01]:
You know, you should be feeling positive when you are scrolling through that page. And if you don’t, get the heck out. And the other pieces, take everything with a grain of salt. Because just because one parent got a certain outcome doesn’t mean you’re going to have that same outcome. So it’s good information to have always. But the other piece is. Especially when it comes to dealing with your school district. I’ve seen that sometimes parents don’t understand the process even though they’ve been through part of it.

Dana Jonson [00:41:30]:
So I’ve had people say that they won something in due process when really it was a mediation or something along those lines. So it’s really important for parents who are seeking advice to recognize that there could be really key components that are missing that, you know, you don’t. You don’t know about. And so it’s critical that you take everything with a grain of salt and do your own research.

Andrea Pollack [00:41:56]:
Yep.

Dana Jonson [00:41:56]:
Right.

Andrea Pollack [00:41:56]:
Absolutely.

Dana Jonson [00:41:57]:
So let’s talk about the transformative role of a parenting coach. Let’s talk about what that looks like.

Andrea Pollack [00:42:03]:
My role as a parenting coach. There’s clearly an education component to what I do to help parents. You know, I try to curate what I believe are the best focused, practical parenting guidance. Because you could read books from now till the end of your life and not get through everything.

Dana Jonson [00:42:20]:
Exactly.

Andrea Pollack [00:42:20]:
So I tried to curate what, in my opinion, is the best advice. I think it’s pretty straightforward and good. But then having that forum for parents to meet in a small group where they can get the kind of coaching, and here’s why. Another reason I do it in a small group is not just because of the community element, which is very important, but what I’m teaching parents is the framework to figure out and understand how to problem solve. Right. So I’m helping them in the moment solve a problem. Right. I’m giving them answers, but I’m also backing out.

Andrea Pollack [00:42:52]:
What is the process we use to figure out what that process is, and when they hear it applied to other people’s issues? Sometimes it’s easier to understand a process when it’s not applied to you directly.

Dana Jonson [00:43:06]:
Yes. Yes. I mean, that’s the same as we can’t see our own emotions sometimes.

Andrea Pollack [00:43:10]:
Right. Every meeting we handle, you know, six, seven, eight issues, and we go through the process each time. And it helps parents really have that framework sink in, because eventually what happens is they don’t have to think about it as deeply every time. It just becomes how they parent. And that’s my goal.

Dana Jonson [00:43:29]:
I think that’s a great point. It’s the repetition, too. Right. Because as we said, it’s difficult to implement all your parenting skills in that one moment sometimes, but if you’re practicing it outside of that moment, eventually it might seep in.

Andrea Pollack [00:43:45]:
Well, and so. And then the other. The important thing, and we covered this a little bit, it is about guidance on implementation. Right. Because so much of what’s out there is more information. And parents don’t always need more information. What they need is help applying information. And what I find is sometimes parents come to me and they’ve read so much.

Andrea Pollack [00:44:04]:
They’ve done workshops, they’ve done all the things, and it actually leads them to believe that nothing will ever work because those things haven’t worked. They might have worked had they had the proper guidance in implementation. Say you try a strategy, it doesn’t quite work. Then in my group, they have the opportunity to come back and I can say, okay, well how do we do it? Where can we tweak it? Right. It doesn’t mean that anybody did anything wrong. It just means that that exact way didn’t work. There are always ways to see opportunities to make small shifts until the implementation works.

Dana Jonson [00:44:37]:
I love that because what you read in the book might be similar to what you’re addressing or dealing with, but it might not be the same and your child might not be the same as the child they’re talking about in the book. So I always, I don’t always say, people say it’s a fair saying. You know, if you’ve met one child with autism, you’ve met one child with autism. Right. It, it doesn’t mean, yes, there are some common threads, but it doesn’t mean that you fully understand autism. I don’t know that anybody fully does. So understanding that just because, as you said, it didn’t work, that time doesn’t mean nothing is going to work.

Andrea Pollack [00:45:13]:
Right. Well, parents, yes, they often come and they say, I’ve tried everything and nothing works.

Dana Jonson [00:45:17]:
Right.

Andrea Pollack [00:45:17]:
And I understand why they feel that way. I feel compassion for that because they are trying so hard, they’re so dedicated, they’re so hardworking, but they haven’t been given the tools that they need. They haven’t been giving the follow up support. And it takes a lot of follow.

Dana Jonson [00:45:32]:
Up, especially since our brain isn’t really programmed for that. Right. That’s not how we were parented for most people, so. Right.

Andrea Pollack [00:45:39]:
And because the issues arise in those heated moments, like you said, it’s about being able to have time and opportunity to self reflect afterward when you do have access to the smart part of your brain. Right.

Dana Jonson [00:45:49]:
Yes.

Andrea Pollack [00:45:50]:
You know, to really think through, think through what I could do differently next time without penalizing myself. Like sometimes parents, something goes wrong and they’re like, I should have done this, I should have done. No, you did the best you could. And let’s, and now let’s take it to the next level.

Dana Jonson [00:46:02]:
Yes. So somebody calls you and they says, they say, I need a parenting coach. What’s the process? I’m just a curious, like how, what.

Andrea Pollack [00:46:09]:
Does that look like on my website? I do have a training that is about 30 minutes and it explains my philosophy and basically the, the, the whole scope of what I teach. Then I have a few options and what I do is I talk to a parent, I talk to them at length, at least 45 minutes to understand what they’re dealing with, what their goals are and if they’re interested in, in doing it at this time. Right. Because sometimes parents aren’t quite ready, then they have a choice. I basically have a 16 week program or an 8 week program and I will make the best recommendation for each family depending on their needs and where they are. And I also do some individual consultations, but I really recommend the, the ongoing program because you know, even individual consultations there’s always follow up that’s needed. You know, I like the opportunity to have a place to go twice per Week for 16 weeks. It sounds like a lot, but honestly by the time parents get to like, you know, the 10th week, they’re like, I’m not ready to graduate.

Dana Jonson [00:47:09]:
Right. Can I stay here forever? Well, and I think that’s similar to, I mean I make the recommendation always for parents if they’re, you know, to have someone come with them to the meetings. And I know you don’t do that, but non lawyer, non lawyer advocates. And somebody actually said that to me once. They’re like, who’s your advocate? And I was like, why would I need an advocate like you four kids with IEPs. What, what? And, and it is funny because I did have a lawyer for a while for when a couple of my children, but they were like, oh my God, I shift, I can’t be the lawyer in that situation. And so, you know, just having other eyes there, somebody to help you listen and pay attention to what the priorities are and help keep you on track. I always recommend that.

Dana Jonson [00:47:51]:
And that could be something that you need to help you keep it together so that you can focus on home if you have that other brain with you. So I think also as it applies to parent coaching, if that’s something that you really benefit from, it doesn’t have to be for a set period of time. Right. It can go for longer and you can continue it or on some component, those group, those group components that you were talking about, you know, this might be, it’s not, you’re never going to learn in eight or 16 weeks every single thing you need to know to parent for the rest of your life. Right. So it might be what works for you is an ongoing piece, right?

Andrea Pollack [00:48:31]:
Yes. And I have parents who have been with me for years and Years. I also do, like a monthly training for my graduates, so I might come back. So once a month they can come back and do a training.

Dana Jonson [00:48:41]:
Oh, that’s great.

Andrea Pollack [00:48:42]:
A Q and A session. So they can ask some, you know, these things have just, you know, to maintain the connection, to know that there is a place to go. I also have a Facebook group that, you know, you can ask questions in there and I answer.

Dana Jonson [00:48:56]:
Great. I’m going to have all that information in my show notes. So if anybody is on the run and not near a pen and paper or their computer or their phone, just go back to the show notes. And I will have all the ways that you can reach out to Andrea and check out her website and all of that. Is there anything we’ve missed? I feel like we’ve covered a lot, and I think each component that we talked about, we could probably talk about all day, but I feel like we’ve covered mostly the basics.

Andrea Pollack [00:49:23]:
Yeah, I mean, I think we have. I think, you know, that support element is really important. And, you know, one of the things I didn’t get the chance to mention is, you know, there’s a. There’s a lot of research out there showing that obviously our children’s behavior leads to parenting stress. We know that piece. But then parenting stress can undermine the efficacy of the therapies. Right? And when and when we undermine the therapies, it leads to more behaviors, which leads to more parenting stress. So this parenting stress cycle, what’s important for people to hear in that? It’s not blame.

Andrea Pollack [00:49:56]:
It’s not like your stress is causing behavior. It’s not at all that. It’s that you are important to. You’re an important ingredient in this dynamic. And you, you know, if you need support, I hope that you, you know, that you get the support that you need because you are such an important part. And if you’re not willing. So. So many of the parents I talked to, they’re so selfless and they’re so hardworking and giving, but so they don’t want to devote to themselves, but to understand that you are such a key component in the whole process.

Andrea Pollack [00:50:26]:
So if you’re not willing to do it for yourself, do it for your. Get. Give support to yourself, for your child.

Dana Jonson [00:50:32]:
I say that to my clients all the time when they’re going through a rough component. And I say, don’t forget to take care of yourself. You know, it’s. It’s. It’s overused and old, but that the image of the oxygen mass coming down in the air Plane. Right. You can’t help someone else if you don’t have it yourself. So, you know, take care of yourself so that you can be the best parent to your child that you need.

Andrea Pollack [00:50:55]:
Right. And that also, like, that’s something that I help parents with as well, because sometimes you say, take care of yourself and, you know, the immediate reaction is an eye roll. I mean, I remember being there.

Dana Jonson [00:51:03]:
Right? Oh, yeah, right.

Andrea Pollack [00:51:04]:
Okay, Right.

Dana Jonson [00:51:05]:
All my free time.

Andrea Pollack [00:51:06]:
Right, exactly. But even something like, you know, I have a mom who recently was like, I’m going to devote 10 minutes a day to yoga. Just 10 minutes. Right. So we help set. Let’s set achievable goals. Before we get off of every call, we talk about what’s your action plan? Right. So this isn’t about learning.

Andrea Pollack [00:51:21]:
This is about more understanding. It is partly. But what am I going to do with that new understanding? And I really help make sure that parents take action on what they’re learning.

Dana Jonson [00:51:31]:
Yes, that’s. Yeah, that’s so important. And the only other thing I wanted to add about community, too, was a lot of schools have a septa, a Special Education Parent Teacher Association. And if they don’t, you can find the SEPTA in your state and start one. But that’s another place where you can find peers. If your school has an evening of explaining your rights to special education parents, then go to it. Even if you know your rights, go to it. Go see who’s there.

Dana Jonson [00:52:04]:
Go see who you can connect with. Because anything like that. I know attorneys and advocates, host and therapists and parent coaches, they host things like that all the time, sometimes at the library or at the school and go to them, even if you don’t think you need the skill because you’re going to meet people who may be your peers and might be able to help you in other ways.

Andrea Pollack [00:52:23]:
Yes, an excellent point. Yes.

Dana Jonson [00:52:25]:
Awesome. Thank you so much for joining me. This is so informative. And I really. It didn’t even occur to me, parent coaching, until, you know, I came across. I came across you. I think that this is just such a needed component. I feel like parents of typically developing kids could use this.

Dana Jonson [00:52:42]:
As somebody who had five teenagers at one point, you know, I could have used a parent coach. So thank you so much for sharing your information, Andrea. And I will have all of your contact information and your website and everything in my show notes. So anyone who wants to come back and look at that, please do. And thank you so much.

Andrea Pollack [00:53:02]:
Thank you. It was a pleasure speaking with you today.

Dana Jonson [00:53:04]:
Thank you so much for joining me today. Please don’t forget to follow this podcast so you don’t miss any new episodes and leave a review when you have a chance. If there’s anything you want to hear about or comment on, please go to my Facebook page, Special Ed on Special Ed, and find me there. I’ll see you next time here on Special Ed. On Special Ed. Have a fabulous day. The views expressed in this episode are those of the speakers at the time of the recording and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any other agency, organization, employer, company, or even that individual today.