What is the least restrictive environment? The one that is appropriate! And which one is that in the world of hybrid models where no one even knows what regular education looks like? Great questions. Join Stacey Tié and me as we discuss LRE, what that might look like now, and how to advocate for your child. More information about Stacey can be found on her website: https://wholechildadvocates.com/
TRANSCRIPT (not proofread)
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
least restrictive environment, child, parents, school, advocate, evaluations, services, heard, education, working, component, special education, classroom, questions, connecticut, cohorts, talking, student, training, dana
SPEAKERS
Stacey Tié, Special Education Advocate, Dana Jonson
Dana Jonson 00:02
Hello, and welcome to need to know with Dana Jonson. I’m your host, Dana Jonson and I’m here to give you the information you need to know to best advocate for your child. I’m a special education attorney in private practice, a former special education teacher and administrator, a current mom to four children with IPS and I myself have ADHD and dyslexia. So I have approached the world of disability and special education from many angles. And I’ll provide straightforward information about your rights and your schools obligations, information from other professionals on many topics, as well as tips and tricks for working with your school district. My goal is to empower you through your journey. So if there’s anything you want to hear, comment on, join our Facebook group, it’s aptly named need to know with Dana Jonson, or you can email me at Dana at special ed dot life. Okay, let’s get started.
01:02
Today I’m meeting with Stacey Ty, who is a special education advocate in Connecticut. Hello, Stacey. Thank you for joining me.
Stacey Tié, Special Education Advocate 01:09
Hi, Dana. Thank you for having me.
01:11
And the reason that I have you on today is because I wanted to talk about LRE, the least restrictive environment, we have a lot going on the landscape of education has changed. We’re hearing tons of different programs, tons of different terms being thrown around all over the place. But I think one of the common threads that we have been hearing from parents is what is that least restrictive environment for my child now? Yeah. So I was hoping that you and I could have a talk about, you know, what does that mean? And and I don’t know that I have any direct answers. But I think it’s important for parents to understand the principles and where we came from, and why we even have it in place, so that they can advocate for their children moving forward. So why don’t you tell me why or how you became an advocate, I’ve had the pleasure of working with you on a number of occasions. So let’s talk a little bit about your background. How did you get to be an advocate Did you just wake up one day, and you’re a special advocate?
Stacey Tié, Special Education Advocate 02:11
Well, like most of us, I have two children with IPS. And that’s sort of where it started, I started diving into research and teaching myself as much as I could. And in my own community, I quickly became a resource to other parents. And my husband kept saying, you know, you’re really good at this, and you love this, you should really, really do this. And so it took a couple years. And then I finally said, Okay, I’ll do it. And I’ve done the Coppa training, the Council of parents, attorneys, and advocates, special education, advocate training. And through that, you do a practicum, which is what I am doing my internship with you right now, and associate that and I’m learning so much from your office, and it was time to learn. I know.
Dana Jonson 02:53
We’re all learning. It’s not just you, we’re all learning right now.
02:57
One at a time. So that’s sort of my background, and I started my business hold child advocates to really look at the whole child. And I really believe I focus on relationships, particularly with kids and staff. And one of the first questions I always ask the team, when I go into meetings is who does the student trust, who is who’s feels most connected with the student, because that’s the person I feel is going to get the most out of them that will know the child the most and what they need. And that’s sort of how kind of the philosophy behind how I advocate.
03:31
So right now, when you’re talking about connections, we have a lot of kids are getting ready to go back to school in like 10 minutes. And, you know, some kids are planning to go in full time, some I mean, not parents, some students are planning to go in full time, and some are going to be distance learning completely or remote learning, I actually really hate the term distance learning because I think we all attached it to whatever we were doing last spring. And that was scary. You know, we didn’t know what we’re doing. Nobody had any training or professional development. Some people left their classrooms thinking they were going to go back in two weeks, and we’re never allowed to go back and get their resources. So, you know, it’s I’m hopeful, very hopeful that schools have had time to now figure that out a little bit more and provide more robust and cohesive instruction, but we will see how that goes. But one of the issues are having is what is the least restrictive environment when everybody is sitting home alone? Yeah, what is the least restrictive environment? And so I wanted to bring you on because from an advocates perspective, I know that you work with how does that look with that practical component? What would you be asking for? How would you rewrite that? And I’m looking at it from the legal perspective of what is the least restrictive environment and I think that the thing we forget the most is that it says the least restrictive environment that is appropriate. It is not just the least restrictive and environment. And so for example, during this covid, we had some students who just completely fell apart who are doing fantastic in school. And then they went to this distance component and fell apart. And then we have students who learn, you know, for different reasons. So, you know, when I look at the least restrictive environment, the reason we have this component in our laws, because kids with special needs used to be substantially separated, and kept out of the schools kept out of the classrooms. And so we really do need to take this very seriously. But I think there’s a misconception that the least restrictive environment is a place like a location, right? We always say always our local classroom that our child should be in no matter what, that’s the least restrictive environment, right. So when you’re advocating for a child, how do you identify whether that is the least restrictive environment or not?
05:54
Yeah, I think the most important thing about the restrictive environment is you have to go through almost the entire IEP. And before you can get to the LRE, you have to go over the the present levels and your baseline data, any evaluations or assessments you have to go over that you have parent input is really important. I think, then you have to go through the goals. And then the one of the really telling pages that help in an IEP is the modifications and accommodations page, where what do you need and in the classroom, to support a kid so that they can access their education, and be with non disabled peers, as the law says, to the maximum extent possible. So I think those are the things that have to go into determining what the LRE is, before you can do that. Also, related services is also in there. And then once you’ve done all of that, then you can look at the least restrictive environment. And even that is a process of you know, the least restrictive is generally led all the way down to homebound, which is the most restrictive. So I think that’s sort of the process as an advocate, and we’re going into ppts, we need to make sure that we’ve gone through all the steps and asked all the questions, made sure that all the supplements and supports are available and accommodations are available for the child to access education, and then you can determine what the placement is, and I’m putting air quotes.
07:30
And that’s, that’s a really good point, because there needs to be a continuum of services that are being offered. And, and you don’t have to start with, okay, let’s put this child right fully 100% into their regular classroom and see what happens, you know, but at the same time, we can’t have if you have autism, you go there. If you have ADHD, you go there because it’s not grouped by by student either. And, and I think that one of the concerns I have walking into this school year is present levels. Right. So where were we getting present levels? There are some children who have literally not received services for four to six months. Yes. And they haven’t received anything and then their children who’ve received services, but we’re not able to access them. Yes. And so as we’re looking at what is the least restrictive environment moving forward, I have concerns about how we’re even going to identify that. And you know, what, what will be those legal ramifications of keeping your child home or sending them into the public school? And from my perspective, you know, the least restrictive environment is the general ed population. And now we’re going to have a good portion of that general education population being serviced at home. So does that at home become the legal least restrictive environment? And I don’t have an answer to that. I wish I did. I wish I had a magic ball and or a crystal ball? I guess I should say, we all do. Yeah, well, I feel like I’m working with a magic eight ball. So that’s how it feels right now.
Dana Jonson 09:07
But,
09:08
you know, when we’re talking about any least restrictive environment, we are talking about supplemental aids and services are the first thing you try to provide to the student. So when we have kids at home now, during COVID, if they’re if you’ve chosen the remote learning component, then and you are not able to access that the first thing we should be looking at are supplemental aids and services, just like we would in the regular education classroom. Now those supplemental aids and services may look very different if you are at home, or you are in the regular education classroom in the public school, which is also going to look very, very different from anything we’ve seen before. Right. So how would you with a family or with a school go about determining what those kinds of supplementals services and AIDS might be that a child that could help a child be successful at home?
10:05
Yeah, I think parents are going to be a critical part of establishing the polyp. In this, as we go back, I think they have a lot of data and information because they were the ones on the front line, all of a sudden, you became the special ed teacher, the general ed teacher, the speech and language pathologists, the OT, the PT, all of it. And so you, I think the parents, I think that’s why a lot of us tried to tell parents take as much data as you can write in a notebook. I mean, daily, I’ve heard you say, your podcasts before. And you’ve said to me, even if you write good day, bad day, just get in the habit of writing data down. I know, some parents took videos of their kids, and what they were able to do, and tried to do that on a regular basis as checkpoints. So I think parent, the silver lining is that actually parents are going to have a stronger voice and say, you know, no, actually, I don’t think my child has mastered that skill. I’ve now that I’ve seen how he or she works, and I’ve worked alongside them, I don’t think so. And I think and parents are also going to be to say, this is what this is how many prompts it took for me to get my child to do XYZ, this is how many words that he was able to read or this is, you know, this is how many addition questions he or she got done in in a minute. And so I think parents are going to be a crucial part of establishing the new plan and then do baseline and the new supplemental aids and, and I think they I’m sure they came up with creative ways to of how to support their child. So
11:35
yeah, and I think that when I think there’s a really good point, there’s a parents are very, very involved, there was no option. And they’re going to be different levels of where parents can and can’t be involved at this stage. And I think it’s really important for parents to remember that if they are the teacher, if they are the primary, if that is how this has shaken out for them and their child, they can ask prepare and training, they’re not on their own, that is a related service in the IEP, that might be needed in order to provide your child the least restrictive environment, right. So if you don’t understand the text that your child is using, for the remote learning, or the program, or whatever component it is that you have to offer support for, you can get that training from your public school, that is a request that you can make, and it’s now important in order for your child to succeed, parents are not going to get paid for being the aid for their kid, that’s just never gonna happen, right? We can all accept that that’s not going to happen. And you know, there are many, many situations, and I’ve heard a number of them, and they’re just simply is not a way in which parents are going to be paid to be the aid. However, parents do need to have proper training, if that’s going to be the expectation. And if it is not within the parent skill set or ability, then there has to be another way for it to be provided because that child still needs to access their curriculum. And I think now we’re going to be looking at we talked about least restrictive environment, if the child is at home or cannot come into the school building, then we have to eliminate that as an option. And we may end up with having, you know, going to an outside provider might be the least restrictive environment because that child is not getting what they need at home. But they are able to get it from an outside provider or, you know, smaller private providers right now are able to be more flexible. Yes, a lot of them already have more training on how to do that distance remote component. So in that regard, if those people can serve as a child, then we need to be considering that as the least restrictive environment. So I feel like it’s all been kind of turned upside down.
13:56
Yes, it absolutely has. I think the other thing for parents, you know, I heard a lot in the spring about you can ask for parent training. But when I was as a parent, I’ll take my advocate hat off for a second, but my parent had on when I was in the throes of it. I didn’t even know what I needed. I didn’t even write I just knew I needed help. Yeah. And like they’re not going to send me to get my speech and language pathology degree. But I was really overwhelmed and intimidated by doing speech with my child because I was afraid that if I didn’t get the tongue and the lips and the right, so I think that’s part of part of the issue is parents know, they could ask some parents know, they can ask for training, but they don’t know what they need. And sometimes that’s just asking to sit in on a session with your child and watch with the professional does and then being able to implement and ask your questions. And that comes in the form of consulting hours on page eight. Parents can also look online and find like day sessions, there’s so many webinars out there and a lot of them are actually free. Yeah, so sorry. You look like you want to say something.
14:58
Oh no, I was gonna say I said, I feel like I’m having like webinar FOMO right now. So I’m trying to like chill out on webinars, because there’s so many out there right now. Now I just I find that, you know, we’re also going to have students going into the school in person. And that’s going to create another issue with least restrictive environment, because we’re most schools, I know, here in Connecticut, and it’s different in every state. It’s different from district to district. And in some districts, it’s different from building to building. So that’s going to be really tough to iron out. But for the kids who are going into the building, I know, at least for our state, one of the guidelines is to put children in cohorts that have similar services so that you’re not moving around the number of children. But how is that going to play out? Right, right? Because if you’ve got all the kids who need OT, in this group, do they have typically developing peers in this group? Do they not have typically developing peers in this group? So how would you advise your clients on how to assess whether those cohorts are appropriately diverse for them?
16:06
Right? Well, and then you add the layer of FERPA right? You’re not really supposed to know who else is in your class? By Exactly.
16:13
Exactly. Yeah. But I mean, that’s something I, as an attorney, ask, you know, if I have a student who really needs to, say, learn social skills from in a group environment, and they are the strongest in the group, right, then it’s great for children to be leaders, and I fully understand the benefit of that. But that might not be working on the goals and objectives necessarily. Or maybe it’s working on a different goal and objective about confidence, you know, in helping, but making sure that those cohorts are appropriate ability wise, is something we struggle with all the time when they’re all in school. Right. Right. So how are we going to do this now? How are we going to make sure these are appropriately diverse?
16:57
Yeah, I think we have to ask questions, you know, how are you? How are you? cohorting? And how are you going to do this pull out for my child and OT, I’ve heard some say that they’re not going to do pull out, they’re going to do push in which it almost is sort of like a more inclusive environment. And then I’ve heard some schools said that they’re going to do just zoom, stick with the zoom services before or after school and schedule it separately, or in person and schedule it separately before after school. So it’s kind of like you said all over the place. And I think the only way we’re going to get to the bottom of it is ask questions and write,
17:35
we have to and that’s what I’m advising. Yes, that’s what I’m advising is that you know, what, what is really important is that parents understand what that breakdown is, because they’re different. There’s so many different ways of providing services. And you know, there’s the online component, which I spoke a little bit about in another podcast, which is really just all the resources are online, and you’re not getting any live virtual instruction, there is virtual online, which is live and synchronous. And then when you’re in class, as you just said, there’s push in and there’s pull out, but if the decision to push in is made, because that’s what’s easier for everybody, that might not be what’s appropriate for your child. But that being said, I also am hearing a lot of parents say, but I just want what was there last time, like when we were back there before? That’s what I want? And unfortunately, we don’t know if that is going to be available. Right? So you know, we can’t be saying, well, I just want what we had before, because that doesn’t exist right now.
Dana Jonson 18:33
Yep. But there’s
18:34
so many other components. And I think that if parents are feeling that they’re not being heard, or that whatever level of least restrictive environment or inclusion or separation is not appropriate for their child, it would be really, really important for them to reach out to the team reach out to their teachers, and possibly reach out to an attorney or advocate because I think that we’re I think there are a lot of things with the least restrictive environment that we have not established. And I know that a lot of attorneys are, you know, we’re attorneys, we want to hold the school districts accountable, we are ready to hold them to the IDA and all of their obligations. But right now, it’s unclear how those different components play out. And I think it’s really critical that we are all you know, flexible. Yeah. Creative. I mean, we’ve been saying those words for a long time now. But I want parents to know that they still have that right. And that schools still have that obligation. Yes. So what are you there’s been no waivers. I know oh, my God, I’m saying that like a broken record. There are no waivers we all still have all of our rights. So what are some of your experiences since March via yourself or with clients on you know how to obtain this that the appropriate environment
20:00
A lot of people have had to become a little more assertive and have had to ask for tpts. While you know, we’re on a little bit of a backlog of ppts, from when COVID happened, but when parents started to feel like they really needed more support, or they needed something they’ve had to call ppts. And, and discuss it with their team,
20:19
just for anybody. Yeah, just for anybody listening Carson, Connecticut, we call IEP meetings. Right. But these are IEP meetings. And and I know different states have different names for them. But yeah, here in Connecticut, we didn’t hold them for a long time. And so we really do have a backlog of evaluations of IEP meetings, present levels of functioning. I mean, it’s really we’re in a backlog.
20:42
Yeah. And I think a lot of parents, what’s been working out is sort of having those, these team meetings, these IEP meetings, and talking about what their concerns are, what they what their needs are, and what supports they’re looking for. And then sort of, it looks like it’s going towards the compensatory services route. And and using a lot, as you said earlier, a lot of outside providers who have been doing this and sort of have figured this out and how to do it. And I think we are going to see a lot more of the private in the in the public education sectors working together more, because of all the backlog of evaluations and services and supports that need to be done. So I think we’re going to see a lot more of that coming up. I
21:25
mean, I know that a couple places are already have waitlist for evaluations through January. I know we were you know, at least here in Connecticut, we didn’t have a plethora of evaluators to start with. And so now that everyone’s back live, but you’re right, I know of a lot of private evaluators who are able to do in person evaluations. And you know, in assessing these present levels, which is what we have to reassess before we can determine, as you said, the least restrictive environment, if your child can’t go into school, but they need an evaluation that has to be done in person, right, then we have to figure out other ways to make that happen. And there are a lot of private evaluators who are doing evaluations in person because they have this space and ability to create that that safe environment for the student. But we don’t really know what that looks like in the public school. And if you have a child who can’t enter the building, then that that right, there becomes a restriction and that so that building’s off the table, and you have to look at, okay, if they’re at home that’s separate, it can’t be, well, then you have to send your child into the public school building. Because, you know, in some situations, we may hear that, we may hear that the school say, if you want this service, you have to bring them into the public school. And at that point, what’s going to happen? And as an attorney, I don’t know, I don’t have the answer to that. I wish I did. But I think we are that’s one of the pieces we’re going to be running into. And I think it’s going to be up to parents to figure out the solutions and bring them to the school district as much as possible. Yes. Right. So is that something that you’re advising parents to do? And yeah, yeah, I
23:06
have been telling parents, you know, but I but I’ve also been saying, bring your team with you. email them, let them know, and ask your questions, advocate for where you want. And then tell them while while you guys are working on this, I’m also going to work on this, I’m going to go research evaluators and, and outside therapists, and let’s come back together and see what we have collectively, and what we can come up with together so that you almost come with sort of a package, and it helps them because the school is just as brand new to them, too. They don’t know. They’re trying to figure this out on the fly, too. So I think, you know, whereas it used to feel very adversarial. If you went and said, I want this evaluator to do this. It’s now more of a let’s work together to problem solve and get this moving efficiently for our child. So I agree, I think the other thing with going back to school right now that I wanted to mention that was we’re going to have to prioritize and go back and look at the goals and almost prioritize them because a were backlog. It seems like most districts even in the country are going back hybrid model, not a full time model. I don’t even know what the scheduling is like for children special needs in a hybrid situation I how complicated that is. So I think with your teams, you have to sort of work on like prioritizing as well. And as you said earlier, they in a hybrid world, they’re still not going to be able to do the implement the full IEP that you had, and just like when they close, they know it’s going to be to the greatest extent possible over and over and over again.
24:42
So on I used to say to parents, will new parents if you know not that anyone should be giving parenting advice because I think we’re all flying blind. But you know, I always say you will instill your values, it just might not be in the same way you thought. Right? So we all have this plan, like My child was never going to use a banky ever. And then I had her and that went away. Now, that doesn’t mean, that doesn’t mean that I didn’t impart my values onto my children the same way that I wanted to, but maybe it just wasn’t with a Binky. And so that wasn’t the hill I was gonna die on. And I think that that’s a similar situation that we’re in right now, your child is still entitled to a free appropriate public education in the least restrictive environment that is appropriate, that just might not look the way it did before or the way you thought it should? Or thought it would. And so once we’re able to sort of reassess that, from the legal perspective, the pieces that I as an attorney, if you called me and said, Well, you know, I, you know, either want my child to get outside services or inside services or wherever they are, you know, I worry about how are we going to get the evaluations? How are we going to get the professionals who are going to tell us what this child needs. So if parents have outside providers who are already working with their children, as you said, be getting data or reviewing the data they took, I don’t think there’s a single person I heard speak since March 13, that didn’t say parents take data. So I think that’s there, too. And that will definitely be part of it. But so I think we’re talking about the evaluations, the present levels, and certain evaluations that can’t be done online, then we have to find other ways. And so that doesn’t mean we don’t get the data. It just means we have to find other ways to obtain it. And then maybe make a plan for getting that standardized data later.
Stacey Tié, Special Education Advocate 26:31
That’s right. Yeah. I think that’s a great idea. Now, you saw that, so
26:35
I solved it. There we go. It’s all good. Now everybody can go back to school. There we go. No problem. I know, I’m just I, you know, it’s so funny, because I hear if I hear one more time, this is like, unprecedented. We’re all in the same boat. And like I know, but it’s been this way for like six months. Like I almost want school to just start so we know what’s going to happen?
26:53
I know. I know. Yeah. It’s it’s overwhelming. It’s overwhelming. It’s it is overwhelming.
26:59
What are you hearing as the most for me, probably what I’ve heard the most is, or what I find, I don’t know the right way to put this. But what I hear a lot is what we had was working. And I want that back. And it’s heart wrenching to me because usually I get the call and things aren’t working. And so right now nothing’s working for anybody. And you know, and so when, when and as a parent with disabilities, you know, which I am, as well, you spent so much time trying to find something that’s working. And if you found it, and you got it, and now it’s gone. Yes, there’s like nothing more like it’s like a punch in the gut.
27:37
You work so hard for it. I have a really good friend who lives in Pennsylvania who has a son on the autism spectrum, who’s nonverbal, and she called me and told me, he’s five, she called me and told me that they had worked so hard to get 30 words. And since the closures in March, she’s down, he’s down to two, just two words, yes, lost everything. They’ve worked so hard for all the therapists all the hours, and it’s heartbreaking. She said, luckily, she said, he kept the word, Mom, so she
Stacey Tié, Special Education Advocate 28:09
was good.
28:12
But it’s actually kind of more and more challenging word to say it is we put in all this time and energy and effort to getting somewhere I mean, with my own son, he was doing so great. And then with the closures and the lack of structure and the bad parenting. We regressed a little we regressed a little bit, we finally got back. So I’m hearing that, especially is that yes, there’s a lot of regression. And it’s frustrating when you think you found what’s worked, you finally have a plan, you have the right team in place, and the right model, and things are going well, and then everything falls apart again. And so you have to rebuild all over again. And it’s that much harder for our group, our parent group, this parent group to start over again. But I do think that there was a lot of things that were not great about our school system, and that I think we have a chance, like I said earlier, parents are going to be instrumental in shaping what comes next. And because we’re now on the front lines, and and we’re Yes, so I think our voices that’s the silver lining, I think we have an opportunity to really mold and shape the future of education, which I actually find really exciting. So
29:28
yeah, and I mean as a parent who who heard many times at a meeting I’m sorry we just don’t see that here. You know, I I did I heard a lot Well, we don’t see that here. We don’t see that at school but now that my living room is school, you know, I I definitely have a greater and I have a greater understanding of what you know, my my children need or do need but even pre covid what I’ve always said to parents is you have to be the expert on your child and come to your school with solutions. They may not always agree to it, and they may not always jump on top of it, but come with solutions. And that’s going to help you. And I think that right now that’s what’s going to help parents the absolute most. And I think we’re going to hear a lot of Well, everybody regressed. So the way you do and we talk about is why Well, everybody regressed? Yes, they did. But if your child’s progression was above and beyond whatever the again, we’re going with air quotes, no one can say, the norm, you know, then that child requires more compensatory education, or a more robust fate moving forward. And that may or may not be remote learning in person learning. And the LRE is going to be much different for every single child. And so I think, you know, you’re right, we’re just going to have to really, gosh, what’s the right word? I don’t want to say creative because it’s not created, we just really have to work together to figure that out. And I think, particularly if parents enjoyed what was going on beforehand, and they had that good relationship with their their team, that hopefully that team can work together to come up with what that new, least restrictive environment will be like for their kids. Right. But it still exists. I think that’s the main takeaway is that there’s still a least restrictive environment, regardless of whether children are in school or at home or anywhere else. They definitely are entitled to be educated in the regular education environment to the maximum extent possible. Yep. That has not left us know. So thank you, Stacey, so much for joining me and having this conversation with me again, you know, this is not meant to be really specific legal advice, but more a discussion on where we’re going and how we’re handling these things. Because I think right now, that’s the best that we can all do. Right? And, you know, so thank you. If somebody’s listening to this, and they’re like, Well, clearly, I need to talk to Stacy. She’s like the only person who can help me. How would they find you?
31:59
Well, they can find me at my website, www dot full child advocates calm and my email address is ST. I E, a whole child advocate stucco.
32:12
Great. And all that will be in my show notes as well. And if anybody’s listening to this, and they have more questions or concerns that Ellery or the back to school time, please do go to our website at special education, law, our my law firm website, special education dot law, we have updated information as often as we can do it, and many other podcasts that we are talking about different components of going back to school to help give parents as much information as possible, and support. So with that, good luck.
Stacey Tié, Special Education Advocate 32:46
Thank you. Thanks for joining me.
32:49
Thank you so much for joining me today. Please don’t forget to subscribe to this podcast so that you get notifications when new episodes come out. And I want to know what you want to know. So join our Facebook group also named need to know with Dana Jonson or you can email me at Dana at special ed dot life. But definitely reach out with your comments and questions and I’ll see you next time here on me to know with Dana Jonson have a fabulous day
